I fold JJ pf
 

UTG raises (TAG), UTG+1 3-bets (unknown), UTG+2 caps(unknown, folded to me on the button and I fold.

Do I lose my 2+2 card for that?

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

Very standard.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

[ QUOTE ]
For the price of a small cup of coffee, I would be willing to provide a videotape of myself engaged in sexual congress with a farm animal.

[/ QUOTE ]

FiP

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

i don't think it's a bad fold at all

though i probably call because i'm drunk.
i'll also type something like "i 5-bet" in the chat box.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

I've cold called capped betting preflop with TT twice, so I guess I'm a donk....

Hit sets both times, won HUGE pots! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


Although there were higher pairs out BOTH hands (AA in one and QQ in the other) so odds are you are way behind a higher pair and thus it's a good fold.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

Good fold. What about QQ and AK? AA/KK/AKs are no brainers I assume.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

AKo sucks facing a cap...I'd call with QQ,JJ, and AKs because of the ridiculous implied odds involved

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

with no reads on the opponents, you're either way behind or against a trio of maniacs.

You did the right thing.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

Boring. It gets more interesting when you're thinking about calling or capping a 3 bet PF with JJ.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

If I play in a situation like this it is for set value. And if I flop a set and an A or K falls I am feeling queasy...so I don't dislike this fold.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

I'll lead by saying I'm not sure what I think about this. Fold is probably correct play, but just to play devil's advocate, I think argument in favor of calling would go as follows:

1. The set potential. After all, is coldcalling a cap with JJ against 4 players really that different from coldcalling a single raise with 55 if there's 5-6 players already in?

2. Small possibility of a quality OESD. KJ or QJ, most likely to beat you with a higher straight, seem unlikely hands for any of the 3 opponents, so any made one-card straight has excellent chances. I don't like the look of a flush draw, however, because it's way too likely that the J isn't high enough to be best.

3. There is a significant chance that JJ is the best hand, even if all players involved are playing solidly, something pretty close to the SSHE charts. UTG, even if a TAG, could have raised with something like KQo or AJs. UTG+1 might have TT, 99, or AKo as easily as AA-QQ. Even UTG+2 may have AKs. This is all assuming that all three of these opponents (you said UTG+1 and UTG+2 were unknown) play that solidly...I'm sure every one of us has seen many players who have capped with low PPs, any suited ace, KTo, etc.

4. In this situation, JJ seems to have the "information advantage" that Ed discusses in GSIH (relating usually to smaller PPs); either the flop hits you or it doesn't, and how to proceed is pretty clearcut. If you hit the set, raise. If you hit the OESD, call. If A/K/Q falls and there's action, fold. If no overcards come, call for one bet, and fold to a raise.

5. Finally, in this case, you've got position. That alone may be the deciding factor in weighing a marginal call/fold decision here.

All in all, the already-big pot and the huge implied odds (this smells like a 20+ BB pot by the end) seem to clearly justify a call.

Thoughts?

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

This is similar to the call or fold QQ when capped situation. I think we have odds to call here.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

[ QUOTE ]
Boring. It gets more interesting when you're thinking about calling or capping a 3 bet PF with JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

With the button, I'm pretty sure capping >>>> calling.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

Uh, what type of game is this? What limit? What kind of players are behind you? Are they bad enough that they would coldcall 4 cold? If we hit a set here we're going to win 30+BB yes? I'll piss away 4SB for this kind of action. A shame nobody else will.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

[ QUOTE ]
Uh, what type of game is this? What limit? What kind of players are behind you? Are they bad enough that they would coldcall 4 cold? If we hit a set here we're going to win 30+BB yes? I'll piss away 4SB for this kind of action. A shame nobody else will.

[/ QUOTE ]
If we're playing JJ for set value, we need to be playing 22 for set value, and I'm just not ready for that kind of commitment yet.

While it's true that we only need to make up 40sb and 12sb are already in (the 3 people that are going to see a capped flop), this actually hurts our implied odds. People are going to slow down with pocket pairs against further aggression. We are very unlikely to get our opponents to put another 14BB into this pot without our set being second best.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

I see your angle, and am saying that if we get additional callers this is an autocall for me with any pair yes. Only thing that sucks is we can't see what is happening behind us.

We might even get odds to peel off a turn card as well.

EDIT* We're almost positive what these 3 players have in front of us...might as well lay the cards face up on the table. So why not use this information?

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

If we call the problem then comes up with a low flop. You then have an over pair, and it is hard to get away from it, so you lose more than you should. You have to play for set value and implied odds if your playing it. I may call, I may fold, depends who's behind me and how the table has been playing.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

[ QUOTE ]
If we call the problem then comes up with a low flop. You then have an over pair, and it is hard to get away from it, so you lose more than you should. You have to play for set value and implied odds if your playing it. I may call, I may fold, depends who's behind me and how the table has been playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's easy to get away from, that's what is so beautiful about this situation. We're only playing for the set or we muck.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

How does so many people fold. Sure if overcards come your done with it, but what about when they dont.

TT vs AK vs AQ?? You could easily be miles ahead

Call.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's easy to get away from, that's what is so beautiful about this situation. We're only playing for the set or we muck.


[/ QUOTE ]

Easy if the flop comes AQ5, but what about 832 rainbow, are you folding to a bet?

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

I've never been faced with this situation. Up til a few weeks ago I would have said it's an easy call. But recently i've realized that I have to think about odds pre-flop as well as post-flop. Here, IF everyone else calls(who are already in), you are getting 4-1 on the cap call. If we are playing for set value, they only hit about 8-1(right?). If you hit the set, you have to be VERY worried if A,K,Q show as well. Then what?

To me now, this is a fold. Am I crazy?

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's easy to get away from, that's what is so beautiful about this situation. We're only playing for the set or we muck.


[/ QUOTE ] Easy if the flop comes AQ5, but what about 832 rainbow, are you folding to a bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats the great thing about having absolute position over the whole field.

Of course if there is action to us we want a cheap showdown, AA vs KK is rare. We call 1 or 2 on the flop and go from there.

But yeah i think its by far the hardest flop to play. With an A/K and heavy action we are out, with a J we are in. Its the 255 flop that kills us and we need reads for. I still say just try to find the cheapest showdown possible if people are betting at you, raising accomplishing nothing but spewage at any time postflop.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

I'd fold this one too unless perhaps I as sure that there were two maniacs in the hand or two of the guys were tilting away at each other (sometimes happens that two people at a table just raise and raise each other whenever they are in the same hand). The only flop I'd like to see is the one where I make a set, and I'd still be worried if an A,K or Q turns up on the board.

The odds for the J coming is like 1:9 so we have to make
9*4 SB to make it a profit. So the other guys should add another (9-3)*4 SB=12 BB by the time we get to the river. This me thinks is unlikely.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

I ran into a similar situation in my home tourney last month. First hand so we're all tied at 1500. UTG (who limps all his hands, including monsters) limps, 1 fold, next guy raises the minimum, 1 call, I call on the button with 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], bb calls, 650 in pot at this point and UTG limp re-raises to 300 and right there I knew his hand. I was 100% sure it was AA or KK. The original raiser calls, next guy calls, 1500 in pot now and I'm faced with 300 more. so I call and BB calls.

2100 in pot for the flop. I know tourneys are supposed to be tighter, but isn't this a huge implied odds situation?

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

[ QUOTE ]


1. The set potential. After all, is coldcalling a cap with JJ against 4 players really that different from coldcalling a single raise with 55 if there's 5-6 players already in?


[/ QUOTE ]

Um, yes.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

If NL, then I would definitely say yes.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

[ QUOTE ]
I ran into a similar situation in my home tourney last month. First hand so we're all tied at 1500. UTG (who limps all his hands, including monsters) limps, 1 fold, next guy raises the minimum, 1 call, I call on the button with 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], bb calls, 650 in pot at this point and UTG limp re-raises to 300 and right there I knew his hand. I was 100% sure it was AA or KK. The original raiser calls, next guy calls, 1500 in pot now and I'm faced with 300 more. so I call and BB calls.

2100 in pot for the flop. I know tourneys are supposed to be tighter, but isn't this a huge implied odds situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha, in NL I muck that super quick if I have a raise and a reraise in front of me:)

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

Call this for set value. If you don't hit, release. Your implied odds here are enormous, given this type of preflop action.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

[ QUOTE ]
UTG (TAG), UTG+1 (unknown), UTG+2 (unknown)

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't believe that everybody's advocating a fold, here. droolie's reads should be solid, or he wouldn't have put 'em up, so we can establish a preflop hand range for UTG...which range has to include such hands as TT/99/KQs/KJs/etc. We don't know what the other two might be holding, since they're unknown, so we have to base our read on the standard player for the limit. Since he posted this in micros, I think we can assume that we're up against Party .5/1 or 1/2 dumbasses, and they could be playing middle suited connectors, low pps, A9o, or maybe UTG+2 has a hardon for UTG+1 because he made fun of him for taking 65o to the river 47 hands ago. We don't know.

I play this both for set value and because I might be ahead at this point. (How does it change your opinion if UTG folds to the cap and then it's checked to you on a low flop?) I do not play 22-77 in the same case, as the chances that I'll be ahead at the end of the hand, assuming I'm ahead preflop, are much lower. 88-TT, it depends on what I had for breakfast.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's easy to get away from, that's what is so beautiful about this situation. We're only playing for the set or we muck.


[/ QUOTE ]

Easy if the flop comes AQ5, but what about 832 rainbow, are you folding to a bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
No. We'd be getting odds on the flop for our set.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

bozlax, Party $.5/1 is filled with horrible players but they are INCREDIBLY PASSIVE horrible players that raise 5% of their hands.

I don't see why everyone thinks the impled odds are enormous either. You're getting 10.5:4 immediate, which probably averages out to around 13:4 once the preflop action ends. You need to make up ~ (40-13) = 27 SBs = 13.5BBs postflop just to break even, which is not that easy to do.

For people saying "it's easy to play, just flop a set or fold" -- this is not true for the majority of you and you know it. Oftentimes you are paying bets here so you can lose money postflop.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's easy to get away from, that's what is so beautiful about this situation. We're only playing for the set or we muck.


[/ QUOTE ]

Easy if the flop comes AQ5, but what about 832 rainbow, are you folding to a bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
No. We'd be getting odds on the flop for our set.

[/ QUOTE ]

And then are you going to fold on a turn blank for one more bet? And then on the river again?

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

[ QUOTE ]
bozlax, Party $.5/1 is filled with horrible players but they are INCREDIBLY PASSIVE horrible players that raise 5% of their hands.

I don't see why everyone thinks the impled odds are enormous either. You're getting 10.5:4 immediate, which probably averages out to around 13:4 once the preflop action ends. You need to make up ~ (40-13) = 27 SBs = 13.5BBs postflop just to break even, which is not that easy to do.

For people saying "it's easy to play, just flop a set or fold" -- this is not true for the majority of you and you know it. Oftentimes you are paying bets here so you can lose money postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Three good points. In response:

To the first, we already know that UTG is TAG, so not incredibly passive. My default read on the Party .5/1 player is that he's equally likely to be unnecessarily aggressive or ridiculously passive, so that leaves me with one out of three opponents that is "likely" to have a premium hand better than mine.

To the second, if you're getting dead money from 2 of the 3 opponents, that improves your odds significantly.

And, to the third, all I can say is that if an overcard flops without my set card, I'll drop this to aggression like it burned me. If an overcard falls with my set card, I'll play cautiously, but may well end up losing a lot. C'est la poker.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

[ QUOTE ]
bozlax, Party $.5/1 is filled with horrible players but they are INCREDIBLY PASSIVE horrible players that raise 5% of their hands.

I don't see why everyone thinks the impled odds are enormous either. You're getting 10.5:4 immediate, which probably averages out to around 13:4 once the preflop action ends. You need to make up ~ (40-13) = 27 SBs = 13.5BBs postflop just to break even, which is not that easy to do.

For people saying "it's easy to play, just flop a set or fold" -- this is not true for the majority of you and you know it. Oftentimes you are paying bets here so you can lose money postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree in principle with everything that istewart said here.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

[ QUOTE ]
Very standard.

[/ QUOTE ]
Folding or losing his 2+2 card?

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

This was a 2/4 party game. The tables have all been playing aggressively lately. (Rarely does an EP limp go unraised.) The TAG's range can be reasonly small though as he was a 7% pf raiser.

My thinking at the time was that I was almost certainly behind a higher pocket pair and posibbly behind two or even three pocket pairs which meant I would have to hit my J on the flop and have no overcards on the board. It simply wasn't worth 4SB's to try to hit that.

It felt so weird to fold JJ on the button as I think it's the first time I've ever done that. I've recently been capping with QQ and JJ and three-betting with TT, 99, 88 and 77 and had terrible results. I don't think these plays are wrong but I wind up paying up the ass for a hand that has me drawing thin.

As far as what would I do if I had QQ? I think I fold it if I have any reads at all that the capper and 3-bettor are sane. Otherwise I call and hope for the set with no overcards.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

[ QUOTE ]
bozlax, Party $.5/1 is filled with horrible players but they are INCREDIBLY PASSIVE horrible players that raise 5% of their hands.

I don't see why everyone thinks the impled odds are enormous either. You're getting 10.5:4 immediate, which probably averages out to around 13:4 once the preflop action ends. You need to make up ~ (40-13) = 27 SBs = 13.5BBs postflop just to break even, which is not that easy to do.

For people saying "it's easy to play, just flop a set or fold" -- this is not true for the majority of you and you know it. Oftentimes you are paying bets here so you can lose money postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand what you're saying, and Paxo said the same thing. But isn't it possible that someone calls behind us? We could easily be getting 17-20:4(blinds calling...) if the table's loose enough.

I have no problem folding this unimproved if we don't have the odds to draw for our set on the turn. At least I think I could [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] I honestly couldn't tell ya because I've never had this situation where I thought I could potentially be up against 3 of these hands: QQ KK AA AK.

And who says we AREN'T ahead here like bozlax stated? I'm not saying it's likely, but it's not improbable. And we aren't risking our entire stack to find out.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

I think QQ and JJ are virtually the same hand in this spot. The EV of your situation changes when the pair is KK, or maybe if you have a different hand entirely.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

[ QUOTE ]
UTG raises (TAG), UTG+1 3-bets (unknown), UTG+2 caps(unknown, folded to me on the button and I fold.

Do I lose my 2+2 card for that?

[/ QUOTE ]

This edit changes things for me. Hells yeah I call this on the button. We're guaranteed to act last and we possibly having the blinds coming along for the ride.

Re: I fold JJ pf
 

[ QUOTE ]
To the first, we already know that UTG is TAG, so not incredibly passive. My default read on the Party .5/1 player is that he's equally likely to be unnecessarily aggressive or ridiculously passive, so that leaves me with one out of three opponents that is "likely" to have a premium hand better than mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't believe that nobody's going to challenge this. I think it's right...I just can't believe there's going to be zero discussion of it.

I've also been driving around and realized that I'm not comfortable with the 40 bets number. In the first place, it's only 34, since you're about 8.5:1 to hit your set on the flop, right? Second, that only applies if you're folding to any number of bets on the flop if you don't hit your set. Hypothetically:

Hero calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, four to the flop for 16.5SB and you've lost your TAG.

Flop: 922r.
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero ?

Now if you're behind you only have to make up 2BB if you hit on the turn, and it's ever more likely that you're getting dead money from at least one of BB and UTG+2.

I remember being (correctly) hammered in this forum for being scared to 3-bet JJ preflop. If I'm not guaranteed position, here (say I open-raise in MP1 and it's 3-bet by LP, capped by Button, SB folds and BB calls) I think it's an easier bail out, but with position I think we have to see the flop.