Two Plus Two Older Archives - I hate every minute of this

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- - I hate every minute of this (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=319469)

PokerBob

08-20-2005 09:19 PM

I hate every minute of this

elindauer

08-20-2005 09:31 PM

Re: I hate every minute of this

Hi Bob,

I don't like folding in this big pot when you surely have plenty of outs if behind. I don't like 3-betting as your opponent has claimed substantial strength and is well behind anyways if he doesn't have it. Therefore, I call.

On the river, I may donkbet, as he'll probably call with more hands than he'll bet.

-Eric

marsvolta619

08-20-2005 09:31 PM

Re: I hate every minute of this

Call, lead out on the river, call a raise. You're behind AK, AQ, and QQ realistically here. I think QQ plays this similarly, but I dunno if I could fold this. I feel like betting the river is correct here because you don't want to lose a bet when you're ahead. Villain could have KK and wants a free showdown. I'd like to see the results of this

Dantes

08-20-2005 09:41 PM

Re: I hate every minute of this

call & check fold river

JimmyV

08-20-2005 09:44 PM

Re: I hate every minute of this

[ QUOTE ]
call & check fold river

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty close to right on (obviously if you boat up you bet out).

But I think I check-call the river. If it's a leak it's not my biggest one!

PokerBob

08-20-2005 09:55 PM

Let\'s make this even worse.....

Jeff W

08-20-2005 09:56 PM

Re: I hate every minute of this

[ QUOTE ]
Call, lead out on the river, call a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Way too much action. The only hand you beat is KK, but he won't always raise the turn w/ KK, nor will he always call the river bet w/ KK.

Best line is to call the turn and check-fold the river unimproved. Bet the river if you improve.

JimmyV

08-20-2005 10:20 PM

Re: Let\'s make this even worse.....

[ QUOTE ]

I...open fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bluff-6-bet and fold to a 7-bet.

No, actually, yes, just fold. Ugh!

fearme

08-21-2005 02:14 AM

Re: I hate every minute of this

i dont like call and checkfold river, call then crying call
on river

andyfox

08-21-2005 02:35 AM

Re: Let\'s make this even worse.....

I put TR on pocket queens. If he's really tight, he just might check behind on the river, fearing you have A-K. Tight players don't 4-bet preflop with KQs, the only hand he could conceivably have that you can beat.

lil feller

08-21-2005 02:42 AM

Re: I hate every minute of this

Folding the river after calling the turn is horrible, simply horrible. Whats hero drawing behind to here? AQ has us drawing to two outs for half (can't call correctly), AK has a drawing to 3 outs for all of it, and 6 for 1/2 (thats a call on its own, but combined with the possibility of being against AQ...danger).

I think this hand, like all the others that get posted on here, depends way too much on the villian. How tight are we talking? Will he cold/cap with KQ of diamonds? If that hand is in his range, showing this down certainly gaines a lot of merit. Does he has to have AA, KK, QQ, or AK to cold cap. If thats the case I think the turn is a close call, but after doing so the pot is so big you almost have to call the one river bet. Is villian capable of a free showdown raise w/ KK, trying to define/remove BK's hand from the equation? Way to many unknowns to default to a river fold for one bet in a big pot. I'll never understand how that has become popular strategy.

lf

PokerBob

08-21-2005 03:17 AM

results

Canterbury 30/60 (9 handed)
Bicyclekick opens to my immediate right in MP, I 3-bet with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], folds to a tight-regular who 4-bets, blinds scram, BK and I call.

Flop 3-ways: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BK checks, I bet, TR calls, BK calls.

Turn: A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
BK checks, I bet, TR raises, BK folds, I call.

River: K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I check, he bets, I think and think and think and make a horrible call. After the hand BK asks why on earth it took me so long, as he thought the call was easy. But then we discussed it further and realized that he 4-bet preflop, which narrows his range considerably. There is nothing he does that with pf that I am ahead of. I do not think calling the turn is bad at all, as I felt I had outs to chop. Calling the river is just retarded, but that is what i am.

fisherman112

08-21-2005 04:49 AM

Re: I hate every minute of this

it's between call check call and folding to the turn raise.

there's actually nothing you beat but a pure bluff, he's a nit, just fold.

Lawrence Ng

08-21-2005 06:25 AM

Re: I hate every minute of this

[ QUOTE ]
Canterbury 30/60 (9 handed)
Bicyclekick opens to my immediate right in MP, I 3-bet with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], folds to a tight-regular who 4-bets, blinds scram, BK and I call.

Flop 3-ways: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BK checks, I bet, TR calls, BK calls.

Turn: A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
BK checks, I bet, TR raises, BK folds, I........

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling the turn raise is fine.

I also agree with Andy placing the TR on QQ here based on how he played the hand or even worse AQ suited, but QQ seems more likely.

If I had a better read on the player, this fold would come pretty easily for me on the river. Anyways, I think you called right? Curious to know if he did have QQ or not.

Lawrence

Equal

08-21-2005 06:51 AM

Re: I hate every minute of this

So what does a “tight-regular” likely four-bet here pre-flop? AK, AA-JJ… maybe AQ and TT – that’s a wide range.

We know he can’t have AA when the turn ace hits. JJ and smaller pocket pairs are very unlikely with his call-flop, raise-turn line so they’re out.

That leaves AK, AQ, KK and QQ. We are losing on the turn to all but KK. This seems like an unusual line for KK. Wouldn’t he like to raise the flop with KK especially if he has Kh? With runner straight and flush he would sure like the possiblity of seeing a free river card. Raising the turn into a pre-flop raiser and three-better is awfully courageous. KK seems unlikely but not out of the realm of possibilty.

So that means we are most likely behind to AK, AQ, or QQ. We have seven outs to beat QQ (1 ace, 3 jacks, 3 deuces), 3 jacks to beat AK (and 6 to chop – 3 deuces and 3 queens), but we are dead to AQ. With AQ the least likely due to pre-flop action and from a Bayesian perspective, we are looking at a significantly greater than 4-outer scenario. Since the pot odds are laying us 11 to 1, we should call the turn, and check-fold the river barring an A, J, Q, or 2.

Can KK realistically value bet the river here? I would think KK likes to check behind on the river, since his turn raise didn't scare you off - it seems like he's happy to see a free showdown once you call the turn.

elindauer

08-21-2005 12:36 PM

Re: I hate every minute of this

[ QUOTE ]
call & check fold river

[/ QUOTE ]

Upon further reflection, I think this is reasonable and probably best. Part of my motivation for calling the turn is the possibility that we are up against KK, but if you believe that this guy would never value bet this hand, and live this certainly seems reasonable, then check-folding the river looks good. If he has KK, you show your A and he pats himself on the back for not spewing that last bet, as of course you never would fold trips... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-Eric

arod15

08-21-2005 01:29 PM

Re: I hate every minute of this

Call if a J comes check raise if not check call. I think your ok here to see the river

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