Big Stacks Going at it
 

$20 Home Tourney started with 14 people and we're down to 4 and all in the money.

UTG has about 12,000
Button (me) had 11,000
SB has 4,000
BB has 1,000

Blinds are 400-800.

UTG and I had been knocking guys out and bullying the small stacks (almost working together, but not colluding or doing anything illegal). We were avoiding going head-to-head.

Here's my dilemna.

UTG raises enough to put both small stacks all-in, when I look down at 10-10. UTG is solid. I am certain that if I fold, I'll get at worst 2nd. If I call and lose, that brings 3rd & 4th into play. What would you do in that situation?

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

Without seeing the payout table, I'm probably calling. If one or both blinds come in, barring a ten on the flop, I'm hoping UTG will check it down with me. If neither blind comes in, I'm pushing on most flops, and folding to an all in bet on a two or three overcard flop from UTG. What are the range of hands you put UTG on? I think it should be pretty broad; I might make his raise with as little as any ace, and I'd certainly do it with small and middle pairs.

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

Here's the payout structure
1st: $140
2nd: $80
3rd: $40
4th: $20

I put him on a fairly good hand. A big ace or a pretty good pair.

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

fold. either a coin flip situation, or a your a dog to an overpair. if he takes the blind's chips,you will still have a decent amount of chips left.

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

easy fold he at least has an ace or two overcards so you are anywhere from a 2/1 favorite to a 4/1 underdog and the underdog or coinflip is probably what your really looking at
if he takes both the small stacks out your only about 3/2 dog

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

[ QUOTE ]
Without seeing the payout table, I'm probably calling......I'm hoping UTG will check it down with me.

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Without seeing a payout table, I'd fold because this probably is one of those situations where chip preservation can move you up significantly on the pay scale.

Although the check-down thought is very interesting, you have mentioned that UTG is into some forms of implicit collusion - has he been doing this as well?

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

i call and win the tournament if the flop comes good.

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

[ QUOTE ]
i call and win the tournament if the flop comes good.

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I'm really surprised at the people saying "fold" here. If the OP really put him on the range of hands he mentioned, then I think you are putting him on the wrong range. If you are sure about that range, then fold. But I'd make that play with Axo, maybe even KJo four-handed, and certainly 55-99. You can absorb a 4,000 blow to your stack if you get a painful flop (AKQ?) and still limp into 3rd, and maybe 2nd.

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

Those 10s would hit the muck in a nanosecond.

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

agreed. It's four handed. fold? I'd call. you have position. If the conditions were not as described, (semi-collusion), then I'd raise here 4 handed right? But if you've really been "teaming up", I think there's a good shot of a check down... or maybe you catch your set and trap. So I'd call and see what he does. If it's undercards and he leads out.... maybe I pitch.... ? maybe not. 10s are too good to waste four handed.

Of course, that's me, at a home tourney rather than online, I don't really care about moving up from 4th to 3rd or 2nd here. I play to win, for pride and bragging rights. If I'm playing to win, I call here and see a flop.

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

Raise. I play to win, I guess. I like pushing here, you're going to have to take him on at some point.

Folding is the second choice of the three options.

Calling is horrible because you're putting 1/3 of your stack in with mid-pair, basically committing yourself to the pot.

edit: actually, calling with the intention to pull a stop-n-go barring an A on the flop is a good play too.

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

i think teaming up has been thrown out the window.(once the other 2 are all in) if i were the original raiser, there would be an automatic bet after the flop to try and isolate the other all ins and get you to fold. as far as "wasting" tens, once heads up, good cards help, but really arent needed. my original post said fold, but the only other option would be to push. you cannot call.

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

Hard to stop-and-go from the button.

Also, calling most certainly does not commit you to the pot. If you hate the flop and get bet into, fold and now the stacks are:

UTG 17,400
You 7,000
SB 3,600
BB out

OR

UTG 15,000
You 7,000
SB 3,600
BB 2,400

Either way, you can still work your way into the top three or maybe top two.

I don't understand the push option at all. There aren't a lot of hands that you beat that are going to call you here (AK, AQ, 99, 88, 77?) But all the hands that beat you will call. You are going to like almost all flops that don't contain an A, K, or Q.

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

I don't want a call when I push, I want to take it right now... the pot is good enough at the moment to take with my push.

I agree with your stack assesments... but with calling we've manged to get ourselves to <9BB. Not many options at that point.

Push and take it down. I can't put him on JJ or better.

Re: Big Stacks Going at it *DELETED* *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

damnit i didn't realize it was a troll accouunt and i jsut got hypnotized into buying 2000000000E4 chips. don't let this happen to you

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

I'd like to thank all of you for your input. I folded and the small stack went out.

Big stack turned over pocket 9s and it was an ugly flop (KJ5-two diamonds).

I took 2nd and at one point had the chip lead heads up.

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

I would call, since your call might put enough money in to convince the short stacks to stick around. Then you can likely check it down to the river.

If you're playing to win, a push isn't a bad idea, but I think calling with position and hoping to eliminate another one or two players is the best option.

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are going to like almost all flops that don't contain an A, K, or Q.

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Aren't over half of the flops you see going to contain an A,K,or Q, not to mention a Jack added in? (you may not put him on the Jack, but it hurts to be wrong)

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

I agree with smoore--calling seems the worst off the 3 options.

If you're playing to win money, not pots, then you either want to fold because you're likely to move up in real money, or raise because the pot is large and you want to pick it up right there. Which one to choose depends what you know about the UTG. 1010 seems like a strong hand against random blinds, but not a strong hand against a legitimate raise.

If you fold, you'll still have a good stack to work with if it goes heads up. If you push, your putting yourself in a position to have a dominating chip lead, and you're forcing the blinds to have a real hand.

Folding or raising are choices about managing your chip stack to position yourself for a win. Calling seems more short-sighted, a choice based mostly on that hand, that moment in the tournament.

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

Look at it this way. The chip leader isn't chip leader over you by much. He has as much to fear from you (well, almost as much) as you do from him.

By calling, you are not pushing yourself out of 2nd place in chips, but you are providing yourself and the other large stack with two hands to take down the short-stacks with.

It's likely that you both will check the hand down to the river unless one of you hits a monster, so I think a call here is fine.

It's possible he might try to push you around after the flop, but not 100%. He could very easily be willing to check it down as well.

If he's got a monster pre-flop and you push, you're in trouble and losing all your chips. Folding I don't like, your hand is too strong 4-way.

Calling gives you the ability to see the flop and get away from it if necessary, but also maybe win a large pot and eliminate one or two other players.

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

[ QUOTE ]
Look at it this way. The chip leader isn't chip leader over you by much. He has as much to fear from you (well, almost as much) as you do from him.



[/ QUOTE ]

I see your point. My impression from the post was that the UTG was pushing a lot. I didn't get the impression that he would check down or back off to a call.

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

that was my point. I guess it depends on your read of the player's willingness to check it down. but I like it. Chances are, if you call, he will check to you. You check if you don't catch a ten (maybe bet if it's all undercards). If you check there, chances are most players will check it down to know 'em out, at least at the tourneys' I play. That would be my play from his position, but one of my problems is often expecting everyone to play like me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

If the flop comes with overcards to his 9's (which it did) he could very well fear that you have hit something, and be very willing to check it down.

If it comes all undercards, he might take a stab at it, but he might fear you've got a higher pair or a flush draw with overcards that you're willing to gamble with.

Either way, you have position, a strong hand 4-way, and a better shot at eliminating the short stacks and possibily putting yourself into the chip lead.

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

[ QUOTE ]
Look at it this way. The chip leader isn't chip leader over you by much. He has as much to fear from you (well, almost as much) as you do from him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't articulate this in my post, but that's exactly why I favor pushing here.

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Look at it this way. The chip leader isn't chip leader over you by much. He has as much to fear from you (well, almost as much) as you do from him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't articulate this in my post, but that's exactly why I favor pushing here.

[/ QUOTE ]

but then you have one less hand that can be used to eliminate the short-stacks with.

If you push, he's only going to call with premium holdings that have you in trouble (Q/Q, A/K, A/A, K/K) I would think, he might call with J/J as well if he reads you for A/K.

I think you're risking too much for too little gain. Again, you have position on the flop and he's forced to act. You leave yourself an out this way, where you can get out of the hand with enough chips to still have a go at it, instead of committing all of your forces into a blind assault that you can't be certain you will win.

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

wow you folded pocket tens

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

I don't like the push. Maybe because I'm still smarting from that game on your birthday when I pushed my tens UTG into your button queens four-handed and went out from a spot that I was almost certain to get in the money from.

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

Stop pretending that you didn't intentionally throw that S&G as a birthday gift.

Re: Big Stacks Going at it
 

In my game?

A push re-raise would be a no brainer against all but 3 or 4 of the people I regularly play against, given the range of hands people are willing to get all of their chips in the middle with.