PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

CO in this hand is LP 33/5. SB is LAG 40/20

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (7 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero??

Raise and maybe clean up a bigger Ace, or call and keep the customer behind you in?

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

I'd call here. Its very unlikely you're gonna knock out any bigger Aces on this board if they are out there.

-ActionBob

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

I raise. CO will call two as easily as one.

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

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I raise. CO will call two as easily as one.

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Wait, i thought the point of the raise was to pick up an ace as an out in the case that the CO has a bigger ace.

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

raise for semibluff value.

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

So I assume if it gets headsup with flop better that you will bet a turn that doesn't improve your hand in hopes that he folds?

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

i diskile the preflop raise with a weak hand. now on to the question. clearly at least you call, the raise is your question? i think a bigger A probably won't fold if you reraise the flop, and if you had position you could reraise to get a free card. here i am not sure what you gain by reraising with a hand that is not best. i call.

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

if he had many opponents who had already called 1 bet, then reraising with great odds to the nut flush would be correct. here it gains him nothing - he probably doesn't have the best hand, he won't lose people with a better A, and his odds of making his hand vs the pot odds are not correct for a reraise.

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

We don't think there's any chance that LAGgy SB is plugging a flush draw or staight draw? I raise, take a free card on a turn, and quite possibly show ace-high at showdown.

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

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We don't think there's any chance that LAGgy SB is plugging a flush draw or staight draw? I raise, take a free card on a turn, and quite possibly show ace-high at showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

yup. i raise this one everytime.

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

you are in no way guaranteed a free card. co acts after you do. if you have position on both opponents raising for the free card is clear. but if you raise the flop, co calls, and you miss (all likely), if you then check the turn the co acts after you do.

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

I raise, take a free card on a turn, and quite possibly show ace-high at showdown.

I don't think it's possible to accopmlish both of these.

Assuming the player behind him clears out and the LAG just calls, I bet the turn here and take the showdown unimproved.

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

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you are in no way guaranteed a free card. co acts after you do. if you have position on both opponents raising for the free card is clear. but if you raise the flop, co calls, and you miss (all likely), if you then check the turn the co acts after you do.

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If CO calls then I get value on my raise.

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

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I'd call here.

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I'm surprised you say that, I think this is an easy raise, you wouldn't mind folding gutshot +1 overcards hands like K9s etc, you either get value from your raise if CO calls or possible free card.

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

I call here. ultimately the value of a raise depends on the chances you can win this hand without a showdow, I'd have to dive into the math and make assumptions, but given the board and the action, the flop is a call because i think your semi-bluffing equity is very very low.

a raise also cuts your implied odds for when you do hit your hand on later streets.

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

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I call here. ultimately the value of a raise depends on the chances you can win this hand without a showdow, I'd have to dive into the math and make assumptions, but given the board and the action, the flop is a call because i think your semi-bluffing equity is very very low.

a raise also cuts your implied odds for when you do hit your hand on later streets.

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ya know stox,

i couldn't think of what i do here most often...and i tried to go looking through my PT database to find a similar hand and see how i played it but i suck at PT so i gave up...

i think i probably raise too much here...maybe 65-35 call...

i think against some people though i definately do raise and its right...but 35 is too high i agree...whats your call to raise? im gunna aim for more callin less raisin'

-Barron

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

Youre not getting the cutoff to fold any hand you want him to fold(with the minor exception of A9). He will call a T,J, AJ, and certainly AQ/AK if he only cold called them. I think youre likely to get 3 bet by AJ or called down by QJ/KJ. Call and if you sense a bluff, then call the river unimproved. I dont think agression will win this one.

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
CO in this hand is LP 33/5. SB is LAG 40/20

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (7 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero??

Raise and maybe clean up a bigger Ace, or call and keep the customer behind you in?

[/ QUOTE ]
Look at the LAGS #'s he doesn't have a bigger ace to clear out he would have 3bet you b4 flop

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

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a raise also cuts your implied odds for when you do hit your hand on later streets.

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please dont get me started on this again. implied odds, while exhistent, are entirely irrelevant concerning your flop action.

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

I love these "hands in a vacuum". As if poker isn't played in regards to the hand before and the hand to come. I don't think there is a line I take every time. I think that the raise here is so overused - it almost screams "I'm on a draw!", in a vacuum, that's how I'd read your raise. But how are players going to read you? Is there any chance they'll think your trying to make the draws pay?

Also, what are the odds that 1) the CO has an ace and 2) an ace will fall? and 3) he has you out-kicked? 4) the OTHER card is NOT a club. If 1) than 2) = 8%. Say 20% for 1). And say 75% for 3). 22% for 4) There is a 1.1% that he'll have an ace AND it will beat you IF an ace falls. Now, will he fold his ace with a better kicker?

If you raise here, don't do it to "clean up your outs". Do it because it gives you fold equity on later streets. Do it because you think you'll get called by the CO and be making 2:1 when you have a 40% of winning the hand. Do it because it will get you a free card. NOW IM NOT SAYING YOU HAVE TO RAISE HERE. but if you do, do it for the right reasons.

For me, it depends on what I think will happen next. (that is, do I think the CO will fold and the SB will fold to my turn bet or do I think...) It depends on how the SB and CO perceive my raises. This is not an auto-bet.

CSC

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

I'm not sure what I'm missing here. Surely you have to raise this.

Either you get value (if CO calls) or a free card (if CO folds). If CO folds then you have the option of semi-bluffing the turn depending on your read of the SB.

The only reason I wouldnt raise, is if SB is one of those LAGs who defends vicously against a free card by doing a stop-n-go.

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

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a raise also cuts your implied odds for when you do hit your hand on later streets.

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please dont get me started on this again. implied odds, while exhistent, are entirely irrelevant concerning your flop action.

[/ QUOTE ]

see it goes like this...

oh, nevermind.

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

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a raise also cuts your implied odds for when you do hit your hand on later streets.

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please dont get me started on this again. implied odds, while exhistent, are entirely irrelevant concerning your flop action.

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No they aren't.

Even if you raise and someone calls and you get overlay on your draw you have still lowered your implied odds because the bettor will now not bet the turn so if you hit now you only get 1BB and not 2BB, this is something to be considered. I still think it's a raise. But there are situation in which are so close that it comes down to what i said above.


As clark says, why put money in now when my equity is close when my equity is going to hugely change on the turn.

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

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Even if you raise and someone calls and you get overlay on your draw you have still lowered your implied odds because the bettor will now not bet the turn so if you hit now you only get 1BB and not 2BB, this is something to be considered.

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You raise the flop CO calls SB calls, hit the flush on the turn, you bet one or both call, you bet the river one or both call. You win 4-6 BB's.

You flat call the flop, CO calls. You hit the flush on the turn, SB bets, you raise CO folds, SB calls or folds, you bet the river, SB calls or folds. You win 2-4 BB's.

You gain much equity through deception with a flop raise.

Add in to the equation that there is a chance your ahead of SB and may be able to get the CO to fold hands like small pocket pairs or bigger aces and a flop raise becomes even more sexy.

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

gambler's post was very good. I think you are not looking at it correctly, but i will say it is close.

remind me again why SB calls your flop raise in your first scenario?

i still believe calling is correct here.

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

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remind me again why SB calls your flop raise in your first scenario?

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I'm not sure if I have ever seen a LAG fold for a single bet to a flop raise.

There are lots of reasons why just calling is correct, but winning a bigger pot due to implied odds is not one of them. IMO, most times you'll actually win a smaller pot by waiting to raise when you hit. On the flip side of raising the flop, you will often lose an extra half a bet or a full bet if the SB or CO reraises and you miss your flush. I agree its close and I could only make a decision at the table having played with SB for an orbit or 2.

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

i mean CO then. sry.

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

I prefer to bet the turn and take showdown unimproved as well. in this spot checking through on the turn against one opponent in sb begs for a bet out on the river from a hand that otherwise may have folded the turn or you may have beat (smaller flush draw, unimproved).

-brad

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

How is this not an easy raise?

I don't really care about cleaning up the ace outs. If the CO calls two cold behind me, then I'm getting value with the overcard and flush draw against two players. If he folds, I have position, will be able to bet the turn, and see a free showdown (though this won't work sometimes against a LAG, but it will happen plenty.)

The implied odds explanation that stoxtrader suggests only makes sense if you are planning to fold unimproved to a river bet after calling the flop and turn, and the only way you can justify a river fold is if you decide somehow that this laggy SB absolutely must be paired and will never fold, which of course is not the case. Thus...raise the damn flop.

Will

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
We don't think there's any chance that LAGgy SB is plugging a flush draw or staight draw? I raise, take a free card on a turn, and quite possibly show ace-high at showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this right. Even if CO folds and then SB three-bets, which, unless against a set or two pair, is the only way your flop raise at greater than 2:1 draw (nut flush ace overcard) can be -EV, even if this occurs...you gain info that ace high no good on end. And this is the worst case. SB probably won't 3-bet and , if CO calls, you don't mind so much getting three-bet (and even consider capping [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] ).

Also by taking the free turn card, you avoid another "worst case" that is getting check raised if you miss. Ditto for calling on the end if you really think he might be drawing.

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

I like a raise for a free river. The CO is either gonna get 8:1 to call or 4.5:1 to call. Sounds big, but we're talking about the difference between whether he has an 11% chance or 18% chance. Raising gives you the best shot at saving half of a bet on the turn.

If the CO calls, hell check anyway. If the SB c/r's, you won't be in the middle of a raising war if you called. You'll be getting good odds, but your Ace is dead.

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

did you consider calling the flop and raising a favorable turn card?

Re: PP 7 handed 15/30 flop decision
 

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given the board and the action, the flop is a call because i think your semi-bluffing equity is very very low.


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Agreed.