AK free flop
 

2-4 online

2 limpers to me in LP and I raise with AKo. BB and limpers call.

Flop KQJr. Checked to me I check.

Comments?

Re: AK free flop
 

bet, dude

Re: AK free flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Checked to me I check.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont get it.

Re: AK free flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Comments?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet the flop.

Re: AK free flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Checked to me I check.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's way behind AT and T9...

Re: AK free flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Checked to me I check.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's way behind AT and T9...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, he is.

Re: AK free flop
 

I hate it. Seriously.

You're missing value way too frequently here.

Rob

Re: AK free flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Checked to me I check.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's way behind AT and T9...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, he is.

[/ QUOTE ] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

You got the best hand most of the time.

Re: AK free flop
 

Big coordinated flop? Dangerous check, man.

Bet dude, bet.

Not at all fan of the check with that board.

You likely have the best hand.

Maybe I'm being naive. Why check?

Re: AK free flop
 

why check?

Results
 

Turn blank. Checked to me, bet, call, call.

River blank. Same action. Worked out well. Who can tell if betting the flop gets them to pay off the turn and river?

I've got TPTK with a 1 outer to the nut str. I was the PF raiser with position. It's a Bway rainbow flop. On odds alone, if I'm ahead now, how many cards can hurt me? They're mostly all 2 and 3 outers.

I risked a free card to the 2 and 3 out hands I was ahead of for some deception and calls on the BB's. It's not a default play. It's mixing it up when either way ahead or behind. Just an idea.

Re: Results
 

KT and less would have paid off to the river.

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who can tell if betting the flop gets them to pay off the turn and river?


[/ QUOTE ]

I can't think of a board (other than like KcQcJd) on which the typical party 2/4 players is more likey to call betting to the river.

I do see that, for the most part, the free card isnt killing you. The bet is for value. Let them pay you off.

Re: AK free flop
 

Pot's big enough where giving a free card can really hurt you (you want gutshots to call) but not so large that you want to induce a bet so you can force the field to call 2 on the turn. This is a straightfoward flop be for me.

If it went 5 limpers to you on the button and the pot is 13 SBs, then we have something to discuss, I think.

Re: AK free flop
 

If I limped with pocket 6s I am loving the flop check and folding to the turn bet anyway. If I am in the BB and called with J8s, thank you very much.

If it costs you the pot even once in awhile it doesn't seem worth it.

Results..responses
 

sfer talks about the size of the pot. Good point. Someone else said 66 or J8s is folding the turn. That I have to disagree with to a certain extent because the players in online LL's tend to call down PP's as small as 22 no matter the board. Someone said KTo is calling down, which I agree with. It helps us more than hurts us if he hits his T.

All good responses. I took a different line for 2 reasons. One is I want to see who'll chase the PF raiser on that board and payoff. The second is I have to mix it up sometimes. I know I probably have equity, etc. I want to see sometimes who, if anyone, is bringing the action when I check it there.

Sometimes you bet and it's folded around. Nothing wrong with that. But let's see what a check brings to the chasers. Thanks for the responses.

Re: Results..responses
 

I like when people present a problem, then provide their own solution contrary to all advice.

Re: Results
 

I wouldn't think like that and I don't think that is the way you should think. Bet the flop, you don't want to get free cards if their behind.

Re: AK free flop
 

Ridiclulous

Re: AK free flop
 

Bet the flop. Cannot let them see the turn for free
-sinful

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
... Worked out well. Who can tell if betting the flop gets them to pay off the turn and river?

I've got TPTK with a 1 outer to the nut str. I was the PF raiser with position. It's a Bway rainbow flop. On odds alone, if I'm ahead now, how many cards can hurt me? They're mostly all 2 and 3 outers.

I risked a free card to the 2 and 3 out hands I was ahead of for some deception and calls on the BB's. It's not a default play. It's mixing it up when either way ahead or behind. Just an idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not a good idea for several reasons.

1) You have no real way to know where you are in the hand. If you bet and everyone folds, then obviously you weren't going to get much action anyway. The board is very scary for someone whos hand doesn't fit and even for some that do.

2) You're not explicitly stating it but I get the feeling that you were prepared to go all the way with your hand (even to the point of giving people a chance to suck out on you). What do you do when someone starts betting into you on the later streets? Are you going to be able to fold? I seriously doubt it as your whole strategy is based on the idea that you are willing to risk suckouts to try to lure in a chaser.

3) There are still a lot of ways you can lose that hand. Someone sitting with a low pocket pair is going to be thrilled that you're giving them free cards. Someone who is sitting on a made hand may well slowplay the flop and then bet the turn. If the turn came up a blank, you may very easilly be misled into believing that they are betting for having paired the turn card. Let's not forget to mention the possibility that someone picks up two pair on the later streets when you had them beat with your TPTK.

Re: Results..responses
 

[ QUOTE ]
sfer talks about the size of the pot. Good point. Someone else said 66 or J8s is folding the turn. That I have to disagree with to a certain extent because the players in online LL's tend to call down PP's as small as 22 no matter the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is selective memory, IMO.

Some people call all the way with any pair, I agree. But you know very little of the hands that folded along the way. A lot of the hands that fold are small PPs that didn't hit a set.

Re: AK free flop
 

Wow. This almost set my troll meter off.

With this flop, all the good cards are already on the board. What card can come that will improve somebody and still leave them 2nd best? Anybody who's calling the turn was already calling the flop.

Bad cards for you: A,Q,J,9.
Likely bad cards for you: K,T since they'll dry up your action (or give a worse hand a split with a T)
Possible bad cards for you: All others, since they could give someone a free set or two pair
Good cards for you: ?

The only thing the check does is cost you value and give somebody with a weak hand a chance to beat you.

Re: AK free flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
2-4 online

2 limpers to me in LP and I raise with AKo. BB and limpers call.

Flop KQJr. Checked to me I check.

Comments?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you check? The 1st time a J falls on the turn, and some tool with J4 snaps you off, you will bet the next time.

Give me a break.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like when people present a problem, then provide their own solution contrary to all advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really. There was no problem presented or contrary solutions provided.

Getting feedback on whether this was a good spot for a change-up was the point. To see if there's some imagination that could be added to the play of this hand on that board.

How is that not as obvious as knowingly taking a different line here?

Re: AK free flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ridiclulous

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the stimulating insight.

Re: Results
 

Great response. I looked at the board and decided to check and hoped they'd put me on something 99, TT or AJ. Represent something less than TP that might be afraid now. That's all. It's not my new default play. Just trying to see if I'd be more likely to be paid off on the river by worse paint by looking scared rather than strong.

Re: AK free flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wow. This almost set my troll meter off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Troll? Please. Knucklehead is much more like it. Seriously though, I figured I'd get a lot of flop/turn calls by betting. I wondered if the check would get more turn/river calls. Maybe I'm wrong. Thanks.

Re: AK free flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
The 1st time a J falls on the turn, and some tool with J4 snaps you off, you will bet the next time.

[/ QUOTE ]

True.

Re: Results
 

Do you realize how much:

[ QUOTE ]
Just trying to see if I'd be more likely to be paid off on the river by worse paint by looking scared rather than strong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't jive with:

[ QUOTE ]
Someone else said 66 or J8s is folding the turn. That I have to disagree with to a certain extent because the players in online LL's tend to call down PP's as small as 22 no matter the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Results..responses
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like when people present a problem, then provide their own solution contrary to all advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Believe it or not, I actually do like it. If you make the same play that everyone agrees on, how do you expect to win?

Re: AK free flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
2-4 online

2 limpers to me in LP and I raise with AKo. BB and limpers call.

Flop KQJr. Checked to me I check.

Comments?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe that you are really deceiving anyone because you raised preflop. This board should have hit you. Even if it did not, you would still want to bet because you have some hope of taking it down against 2 players.

It is easy for your opponents to have draws here, and I suspect they would have called on the flop and one of them at least would call the river. How many bets are you picking up because of this slowplay? Not many, because I am not sure anyone was going to fold.

What do you do if you get popped on the turn? If it's bet into you then raised? Or if it's bet, you raise, and it's 3 bet? Or if you're checkraised?

Re: Results
 

You're right.