Open Raise UTG (Poll)
 

Do you raise these UTG at a default table?

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

Hate to complicate things (ok, not really "hate"), but are you asking about utg raises? Do limits matter or should we just assume table of unknowns?

edit: you just sneakily went back and answered

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

For me, the hardest ones were Q10s (I voted raise) and 109s (I voted fold).

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

QTs - raise
JTs - raise
T9s - fold
QJo - fold
KTo - fold
A9o - fold
ATs - raise
A8s - raise
A7s - fold
66 - raise
55 - fold
77 - raise
44 - fold
KJo - raise
27o - I would rather shania raise one of the hands listed, like T9s or 55.

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

Holy Enigma, Batman, I can't believe that me, chairman of the weak/tight club, is raising more hands than many people, specifically K10o and QJo.

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

Is the it generally agreed upon that raising 66 UTG is good in a regular game? I might do if the game seemed rather tight, but regularly...?

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

[ QUOTE ]

QJo - fold
KTo - fold
A9o - fold


[/ QUOTE ]

I think that raising offsuit broadways from early position is profitable at many tables. For offsuit aces, any sidecard that puts you in the top 50% of kickers is also profitable at these same tables.

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

I try to play tight in front but loosen WAY up in the Button and to a lesser extent the CO. I still have some questions about the BB though.

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

it would be great to pool our results with these hands to see howw profitable they arent.

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

surprisingly i voted with the majority on every single option.

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

[ QUOTE ]
it would be great to pool our results with these hands to see howw profitable they arent.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good idea, but if we do this, I think that we need to mention what levels we play.

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

I raise all but KTo, A9o, T9s, 55, and 44 at least 90%. T9s probably 75%. KTo, A9o, and 55 maybe 25%. 44 never.

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

[ QUOTE ]
it would be great to pool our results with these hands to see howw profitable they arent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a good idea. The only problem is we would have to seperate out those players who routinely raise a hand like KTo utg from the rest who only raise this hand situationally to get any meaningful data.

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

youre one of these guys who values QJo more than KTo?

Folding pairs shorthanded
 

Why would you fold a pair like 44 shorthanded UTG instead of limping. Is it really -EV to limp call a raise to flop a set?

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

Maybe it is just me, however in my PT database I am showing a profit with 33 and higher raising from UTG (over 100K hands 5/10) - anyone else still raising with these small pairs out of position with sucsess?

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

sample size = too small

Re: Folding pairs shorthanded
 

do you coldcall raises with 44?

Re: Folding pairs shorthanded
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you fold a pair like 44 shorthanded UTG instead of limping. Is it really -EV to limp call a raise to flop a set?

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems most people think so (me included).

Krishan

Re: Folding pairs shorthanded
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you fold a pair like 44 shorthanded UTG instead of limping. Is it really -EV to limp call a raise to flop a set?

[/ QUOTE ]

no, it's -EV to limp, get iso/value raised, have the blinds fold, and have to fold 44 on an A79 board when he's got KQ.

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

Is being suited really worth enough at 6max to make up for a weaker broadway (most raising QTs but folding KTo)?

Re: Folding pairs shorthanded
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you fold a pair like 44 shorthanded UTG instead of limping. Is it really -EV to limp call a raise to flop a set?

[/ QUOTE ]
Right- in first position, you have no information about the other players hands. Your EV in pots where you don't flop is a set is going to be pretty small as most of the action you'll give will be in only marginally +EV situations and most of the time you'll just be folding. You just don't flop a set enough to compensate for the expected pot odds you'll be getting after everyone has acted preflop. It could be correct however if you knew the players behind you limped too many and raised too few hands preflop because then you'll be getting better expected odds from the pot.

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

I answered "Raise" to ATs and 77, and "fold" to the rest.

I just looked at my PT stats - I have a 10% VPIP UTG, and 13% in the HJ. Wow. Somehow I still manage to be a 24%/18%?

Surf

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I answered "Raise" to ATs and 77, and "fold" to the rest.

I just looked at my PT stats - I have a 10% VPIP UTG, and 13% in the HJ. Wow. Somehow I still manage to be a 24%/18%?

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious? The ATs was a typo. It was suppose to be ATo. (Which should be an autoraise). Play some more hands.

Krishan

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

Hey Krishan,

Any chance you could construct a similar poll (but with different hands) with regard to hj position? I think it would be interesting to see how much people are loosening up.

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

[ QUOTE ]

Are you serious? The ATs was a typo. It was suppose to be ATo. (Which should be an autoraise). Play some more hands.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I tightened up in EP when I first moved up to 10/20 because I was having trouble dealing with being 3bet all over the place etc. I guess the rest of my game adjusted but that didn't...I'm kind of curious if i'm going to end up being closer to 30/20 than I thought when I finish adjusting that.

Surf

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is being suited really worth enough at 6max to make up for a weaker broadway (most raising QTs but folding KTo)?

[/ QUOTE ]
Seriously. BOTH QJo and KTo are getting folded, but QTs is getting raised? Somebody's falling in love with sooted cards.

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

I only fold T9s, 44 and 72o.

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

I would say yes, QTs is better than KTo UTG. People expect strength from UTG so with your QT, even if you miss you can win by representing an A or a K if they come on the flop. Also, since you are UTG you don't know whether everyone is going to fold or if they are all going to call. If you get coldcalled a bunch and this hand ends up being 4 or 5 way on the flop, QTs is going to be in much better shape than KTo of taking down the pot. And if you get coldcalled or reraised by someone behind you, QT is going to be dominated slightly less often than KT.

Openraising from the CO or button, KTo >> QTs.

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is being suited really worth enough at 6max to make up for a weaker broadway (most raising QTs but folding KTo)?

[/ QUOTE ]
Seriously. BOTH QJo and KTo are getting folded, but QTs is getting raised? Somebody's falling in love with sooted cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is that being suited gets you to the river more often, and getting to the river gets you pots.

But don't ask me. I clicked "raise" for KTo (which I often do raise) and "fold" for A9o (which I usually do fold). I think I might need to work on my game; but perhaps this is actually okay. I can't decide.

Guy.

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I answered "Raise" to ATs and 77, and "fold" to the rest.

I just looked at my PT stats - I have a 10% VPIP UTG, and 13% in the HJ. Wow. Somehow I still manage to be a 24%/18%?

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]
I voted a lot of folds too. I really hate to get cold called OOP. I could see this changing a lot if I were to play higher. I mean raising QJ or 66 seems really bad if you get 1-2 cold callers +bb..?

my numbers
 

10k total utg hands (or 3 of the button.)

hand times vpip bb/hand
ats 32 100 1.09
a10o 85 100 .77
a9s 37 100 .12
a9o 86 19 .15
a8s 34 53 .28
a8o 95 7 (.02)

kjs 34 100 .21
kjo 89 100 .19
k10s 25 96 1.24
k10o 98 29 .05
k9s 32 22 .08

qjs 31 100 (.13)
qj0 86 99 (.27)
q10s 25 96 (.51)
q10o 90 26 .40

j10s 23 70 (.10)

55 40 85 (.04)
66 42 98 1.05
77 45 98 1.10
88 53 100 .62


the jack and queen hands look pretty bad while the ace and king hands look good.

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

I voted fold for a lot of the marginals, like JTs, KTo, QTs.. hands like QJo and QJs it really depends on the table. It's not automatic for me. A lot of this tightening up is rather recent, past couple months or so.

I think there are a lot of players who can play these hands profitably from UTG, but not the majority on this forum. I think a lot of players would be best served to tighten up here until there post-flop play has developed a bit more.

Re: my numbers
 

btw, is there any way to keep my numbers in columns?

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I answered "Raise" to ATs and 77, and "fold" to the rest.

I just looked at my PT stats - I have a 10% VPIP UTG, and 13% in the HJ. Wow. Somehow I still manage to be a 24%/18%?

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a 20/14. I'm 13/13 UTG and 15/15 in HJ. I voted with the majority of poll, but I don't have the gumption to raise some of these hands all the time.

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

The premise of the poll is goofy and ignores table texture.

I think I limp some of these hands more that people think is OK.

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is being suited really worth enough at 6max to make up for a weaker broadway (most raising QTs but folding KTo)?

[/ QUOTE ]
Seriously. BOTH QJo and KTo are getting folded, but QTs is getting raised? Somebody's falling in love with sooted cards.

[/ QUOTE ]
Or, in this case, with hands that don't completely suck.

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

whats definitive about it? first off it depends on the table. second it depends on your skill. im sorry but i dont see how posts like this are worthwhile. youre just going back to the cookie cutter mold that its so important to stay away from

i raise all these hands except 44 and 72 and i raise 55/A7s/T9s half the time. i hope someone reads this and construes it as something he "should" do and proceeds to play them like [censored] and give me his money. maybe this thread isnt such a bad idea afterall

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

yea i think these posts are a waste..no offense

Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
 

[ QUOTE ]
whats definitive about it? first off it depends on the table. second it depends on your skill. im sorry but i dont see how posts like this are worthwhile. youre just going back to the cookie cutter mold that its so important to stay away from

i raise all these hands except 44 and 72 and i raise 55/A7s half the time. i hope someone reads this and construes it as something he "should" do and proceeds to play them like [censored] and give me his money. maybe this thread isnt such a bad idea afterall

[/ QUOTE ]

There were 2 polls to start. This is the one people should pay attention to. Surf deleted the other poll though so we can rename this one Open Raise UTG (Poll)

Krishan