What content should be censored from the politics forum?
 

While I have no interest in discussing pedophilia a whole lot, I am surprised that the thread on the topic was locked for content reasons (as opposed to personal attacks or something like that). Moral issues are political issues if any laws are passed about them, or even if they affect an election campaign. The morality of pedophilia clearly qualifies on both counts.

So, I'm curious, do you agree?

What type of content do you think should be prohibited from discussion in this forum?

What makes something a political issue worthy of discussion or not?

Is the politics forum a place where one should expect a more free and open tolerance of opinion and heated disagreement based on the very nature of the forum's topic?

This was my reply in the OOT thread concerning the locking of the politics thread.

This is the locked thread.

Get with the program
 

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What type of content do you think should be prohibited from discussion in this forum?

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"Personal help" questions, such as "What should I do now that my GF dumped me", should be disqualified and re-directed towards OOT. Poker-related (but purely poker-related) issues, as well.

Probability, mathematics, religion, philosophy, and science, should be confined to the appropriate pages, in general. But osmosis between the SMP and Politics pages should be allowed, because a lot of philosophical/scientific issues can be political, as well.

Apart from all that, everything goes.

Paedophilia would be an excellent subject for discussion, btw, either in SMP or here, if the context is right. It's up to the bartenders (sorry, the moderators!) to make the call.

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What makes something a political issue worthy of discussion or not?

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The level of responses usually indicates the level of interest for a discussion.

But some posts that start a thread get a lot of viewings but few responses. Lack of responses does not necessarily mean that the post is not appropriate for this page.

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Is the politics forum a place where one should expect a more free and open tolerance of opinion and heated disagreement based on the very nature of the forum's topic?

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Absolutely.

Cursing and flame-throwing are part of the scene.

Here is even a rule I propose for this page : Any poster who goes a month without using a censorable word in the Politics Page is prohibited from posting there for the next month!

Get with the program, fellas.

Re: What content should be censored from the politics forum?
 

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While I have no interest in discussing pedophilia a whole lot

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The morality of pedophilia clearly qualifies on both counts.

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Since this is the only subject you mention regarding being off-limits, then your first quote doesn't ring true. And while discussing consensual sex between an adult and a 15 year old isn't in the same league as those who abuse young children, it still is discussing illegal activity with underage children/adolescents and shouldn't be tolerated. And it's not just a matter of legisaltion. And morality does matter, especially regarding children.

Grow up and seek a mature relationship with someone who is emotionally mature which a 15 year old girl isn't. And don't whine about just 1 taboo topic which is not indicative of a wider range of such topics.

Re: What content should be censored from the politics forum?
 

RE-POSTING OF PARTISAN PROPAGANDA PEICES- esp those that are already published/posted everywhere else. (except those that are satire, etc...)

well... for that matter, news and information that any reasonably informed persod would be aware of should be locked... unless the poster makes an effort to initiate a discussion.

Also, Dr. Wogga's posts should be insta-locked... as well as any other posts that are patently, obviously racist/mean-spirited... no more "Bush and Skull and Bones secretly run the world" "all libs are pot smoking, terrorist-coddling, commies" crap... or, for that matter, posts that attack the lunatic fringe of either ideology and try to implicate the mainstream by association... repubs are not all clan members, dems are not all members of the ELF...


i could go on for days... really.


BOTTOM LINE:

Posts that are not conductive to productive discussion should be locked. I learn a lot from the informed, smart conservatives on this board, but i'm sick of sorting through the crap and exposing the reckless hacks and nutjobs (jaxmike... wogga... felix[sometimes]... bluffthis... GWB... partygirlUK... Bholdr... )


Also.. i think we should have a "post and response of the week" sticky or something like that...

Re: What content should be censored from the politics forum?
 

Sorry if you don't like reading facts or having logic applied to them. I know you don't find that constructive to peacefully wallowing in your emotionally derived lib views.

Re: What content should be censored from the politics forum?
 

Personally, I think nothing should be locked or banned.

I am quite happy ignoring posts that I deem pointless even if I have an opinion or insight or thought on the subject. I would definitely ignore a post that asked if someone played KK properly etc.

In this forum at least, IMO, we dont have too many threads, or threads that are too convoluted to follow (besides, if they are, I just ignore them and my life is not lessened).

But, this is only my opinion.

Re: What content should be censored from the politics forum?
 

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While I have no interest in discussing pedophilia a whole lot

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The morality of pedophilia clearly qualifies on both counts.

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Since this is the only subject you mention regarding being off-limits, then your first quote doesn't ring true. And while discussing consensual sex between an adult and a 15 year old isn't in the same league as those who abuse young children, it still is discussing illegal activity with underage children/adolescents and shouldn't be tolerated. And it's not just a matter of legisaltion. And morality does matter, especially regarding children.

Grow up and seek a mature relationship with someone who is emotionally mature which a 15 year old girl isn't. And don't whine about just 1 taboo topic which is not indicative of a wider range of such topics.

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I think you misunderstood my post. The only reason pedophilia was mentioned at all was because that was the topic of the thread that was locked. I was making the point that issue X was a political issue and yet the thread was locked, is this how the forum should be handled?

I have not expressed my personal views on pedophilia here at all (note that I did not participate in the original thread either). The fact that you want to discuss pedophilia does show that the issue is a valid political issue and again raises the question of why the original thread was locked.

Feel free to discuss either forum censorship standards or pedophilia as you like.

Re: What content should be censored from the politics forum?
 

So in other words, you would have no problem with some NAMBLA pervert starting a thread on how great it is to have sex with children under the age of puberty and how it should be legal. That right?

Re: What content should be censored from the politics forum?
 

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So in other words, you would have no problem with some NAMBLA pervert starting a thread on how great it is to have sex with children under the age of puberty and how it should be legal. That right?

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People start threads on how great using drugs are all the time. I think we can judge when someone is trolling (just trying to get a rise out of people by being outrageous) and when they are being honest.

The locked thread was not trolling, it was raising a legitimate issue in a non-provocative way.

Re: What content should be censored from the politics forum?
 

You didn't answer my question. And having sex with minors isn't a legit topic for discussion.

Re: What content should be censored from the politics forum?
 

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Sorry if you don't like reading facts or having logic applied to them. I know you don't find that constructive to peacefully wallowing in your emotionally derived lib views.

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A: my post was about the irrational structure of your arguments... not about who's right and wrong in this particular case... like i said, i am not convinced that bush lied, strictly speaking, though I'm SURE that your line of reasoning on the issue is nonsensical, manipulative, BS- as any educated person (who is not wearing ideologically created metaphhorical blinders) would see...

B: though I'm liberal on most issiues, i have some shockingly conservative stances on some stuff that would suprise you... (you'd know if you read my posts)

C: I actually like some of your posts... like the one in this thread, which pointed out: "And while discussing consensual sex between an adult and a 15 year old isn't in the same league as those who abuse young children, it still is discussing illegal activity with underage children/adolescents and shouldn't be tolerated. And it's not just a matter of legisaltion. And morality does matter, especially regarding children"- right on... this subject (and others... like "are blacks inferior?" and "OBL is a good person") should be off-limits on what is intended to be a reasonable board for discussion of issues that are debatable by retional people.

so...


we'll see.

Re: What content should be censored from the politics forum?
 

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You didn't answer my question.

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I did. It depends on whether it was trolling, as stated your example would be trolling (and no politics is being discussed)

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And having sex with minors isn't a legit topic for discussion.

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Discussing the politics of the issue is a legitimate topic for discussion. What should be legal? What should the penalties be?

Can you distinguish between discussing the politics of pedophilia and someone posting a pedophilia bragging post?

It is what should be censored from discussion in this forum that is of interest to me. Obvious trolling on any topic has little value to any of us.

Re: What content should be censored from the politics forum?
 

There is no "politics" of pedophilia. The abuse of children is not "politics". Either admit the truth of that or that you have no moral qualms about adults having sex with children.

Re: What content should be censored from the politics forum?
 

*EDITED again because I'm half asleep and wasn't thinking clearly. *

While my original reason for locking that thread was not about the general subject matter, this thread and some thinking have led me to the conclusion that it's not a subject 2+2 would want on their site. If I'm wrong about that, I'll be more than willing to say that my conclusion was false. But after reading the T&C again, and remembering previous decisions made by Mat, I can't imagine this subject being something they want to allow.

The actual reason I locked that thread was simply because it is an x-post. Now that I've thought about it, it was a good lock for other reasons, too.

Re: What content should be censored from the politics forum?
 

The mere discussion of any abuse of children in a way that infers that it is a political matter is the same as advocacy of such actions.

And in case I haven't made myself clear on this issue, I hope all NAMBLA perverts die before they can abuse another innocent child prior to taking their deserved places in hell.

Re: What content should be censored from the politics forum?
 

Asking what the definition of pedophilia is, informs the political debate. Just as asking when life begins, informs the abortion debate.

It was a political question IMO.

The text of the OP in locked thread was:
<font color="green"> Does wanting to have sex with a 15 year old who has gone through puberty make you a pedophile? Yes, it is illegal in at least nearly every state in the union, when you are over 18. However, the question is whether it makes you a pedophile.

I do not think it does. Pedophilia is the act or fantasy (wanting) of having sexual relations with a child. A person is no longer a child if he or she has gone through puberty.

Am I right?</font>

Re: What content should be censored from the politics forum?
 

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*EDITED again because I'm half asleep and not thinking clearly. *

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Stop editing your posts so much. No one expects perfection and it screws up the context of the replies. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: What content should be censored from the politics forum?
 

I edited my post again. My apologies for only being half-awake while writing it the first two times. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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Stop editing your posts so much. No one expects perfection and it screws up the context of the replies.

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EDIT-

Yeah, I know. I don't usually make that drastic of a change, but it was important for me to get this one right.

Re: What content should be censored from the politics forum?
 

It is not a matter of "political debate" but of basic human decency towards children. And the only ones who wish to debate the subject are ones who at the very least wish to have sex with minor adolescents.

Re: What content should be censored from the politics forum?
 

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remembering previous decisions made by Mat, I can't imagine this subject is something they want to allow on their site.

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OOT threads are full of pictures and personal stories and lockerroom innuendo. Treating a politics thread as if it were an OOT thread is a mistake. We discuss abortion all the time here too, I'd hate to see what OOT does with that issue. I'd like to hear what Mat thinks about this.

Re: What content should be censored from the politics forum?
 

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There is no "politics" of pedophilia. The abuse of children is not "politics". Either admit the truth of that or that you have no moral qualms about adults having sex with children.

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Of course there are politics surrounding pedophilia, you're just having a blind knee-jerk response. Our media is very good at programming this response, as we saw when the Brass-eye pedophile special (satirical comedy) aired in the UK in 2001. Chris Morris is a comedy genius who understood that the media simply cannot handle rationally discussing anything to do with children and went to great lengths to point it out in a humourous way.

The program itself was utterly hilarous if you could see past the subject matter, which of course many people could not. No children were harmed, and in fact no discussion of violating children occured IN ANY WAY on the program, but people still lost it, there were 3000 complaints, many from people who never saw the program.

The home office government minister at the time, Beverly Huges lost it the day after in the media. She attacked the content of the program without having ever seen it. There were 3000 complaints. However after the matter was investigated nothing was done, the program was fine and didn't even come close to discussing anything "over the line".

To get back to the original point, what if a 17 year old has sex with a 15.7 year old and gets sent to prison as a pedophile? Is this no different from a 40 year old having sex with a 12 year old? Of course it's utterly utterly different. The former is expected, the latter is a horrendus violation.

It is a touchy subject and one that needs to be handled with care, but if you can't see that there are some issues worth discussing then you're being blinkered IMO. I doubt I'll partake further in this discussion, and I might add just to be clear for you knee-jerk responders out there that pedophilia is disgusting and I in no way condone it at all. Although I conceed that the 17 year old with 15.7 year old is a much greyer area that the other obviously more insane and criminal acts.

Re: What content should be censored from the politics forum?
 

By the way, this thread isn't locked because of the criticism of moderation or the discussion of what should be allowed. It's locked because it was clear to me this was already becoming a thread about pedophilia, and, for now, that's not something I'm going to allow.

My reasoning for this decision can be found a few posts up.

Just to be sure, I will contact Mat about this issue. If my instincts are wrong about this not being something 2+2 wants on its site, I'll be happy to admit my mistake and unlock the threads.

**Yet another EDIT**

It's not fair of me to lock this thread just because some people wanted to turn it into a discussion about another topic. While the OP did link to a couple of threads related to pedophilia, it's clear that he didn't want his thread to turn into a discussion about that particular issue.

Therefore, I'm reversing my decision and unlocking this thread. It may be unusual for a mod to admit making a mistake, but I'm already willing to admit that I made one by locking this thread

But until I speak with Mat, I don't want to see pedophilia related discussion, and that includes what I'm seeing in behemoth's latest thread. Hopefully you guys understand this is not an easy issue for me, and I'm only concerned about it because of 2+2s image and T&amp;C.

Attention, all paedophiles !..
 

Attention-grabbing headline, no ? [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

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The only ones who wish to debate the subject are ones who at the very least wish to have sex with minor adolescents.

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I should probably express my own personal position about the subject but I get the feeling that this would degenerate into a "loyalty test" : i.e. before we are allowed to discuss something, we must give assurance that we are against it! But this puts a damper on discussions about "sensitive" or "controversial" issues.

And defeats the objectives of curious minds. I would very much like to be able to discuss a few things with, say, Adolph Eichmann. I would not require that he sign some kind of apologetic note before we do.

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It is not a matter of "political debate" but of basic human decency towards children.

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It is more than that. May I invoke Spinoza again? "Not to laugh, not to cry, not to get angry. But to understand."

I believe that we owe it to ourselves to try to understand the inner workings of the human beast.

Re: What content should be censored from the politics forum?
 

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Personally, I think nothing should be locked or banned.

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I pretty much agree with this. The only that probably should be locked or banned are those things which could expose the owners of the 2+2 forums to legal action. And of course the owners can and should ban whatever they simply feel is inappropriate.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I have no real issues with Cola locking the thread based on his interpretation of the T&amp;C. I am merely offering my personal opinion on what I consider ban/lock worthy on a internet discussion forum.

Re: What content should be censored from the politics forum?
 

BluffThis, why is 18 the magic age? Why not 17 or 19?

Re: What content should be censored from the politics forum?
 

Would it be a matter of political debate to say that all states should make the age of consent 18? How about 17? Discussing whether something should or should not be legal is clearly a political discussion, even if everyone agrees with your notion that the root of the issue is basic human decency toward children.

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And the only ones who wish to debate the subject are ones who at the very least wish to have sex with minor adolescents.

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No true at all. Just like people who wish to discuss making drugs legal aren't all users. People who think it makes sense to lower the drinking age aren't all underage drinkers.