How do you view astrology?
 

I was wondering whats your vision on astrology( I used the search function and it turns out that sklansky would rather have a son addicted to heroine instead of one that belived in astrology in spite of the evidence, but all the debate was about that statement)
Anyway whats your vision about astrology? Im reading Linda Goodman book called Sun sings( she is supposed to be a famous astrologer from the 60s) and I think she just adds typical human characterisitcs to each sign.(we cancer actually care for others but we prefer to wait for somebody else to help them. I think all humans are a bit like that) However my sister( who just ended medicine on the best chilean school) insists that astrology is true and that Im a typical Cancer. Even my dad says astrology is kinda true and he says that when Im older I will understand astrology( he is a top level civil engineer, he also like pysics a lot and has like ten copybooks with equations).

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was wondering whats your vision on astrology( I used the search function and it turns out that sklansky would rather have a son addicted to heroine instead of one that belived in astrology in spite of the evidence, but all the debate was about that statement)
Anyway whats your vision about astrology? Im reading Linda Goodman book called Sun sings( she is supposed to be a famous astrologer from the 60s) and I think she just adds typical human characterisitcs to each sign.(we cancer actually care for others but we prefer to wait for somebody else to help them. I think all humans are a bit like that) However my sister( who just ended medicine on the best chilean school) insists that astrology is true and that Im a typical Cancer. Even my dad says astrology is kinda true and he says that when Im older I will understand astrology( he is a top level civil engineer, he also like pysics a lot and has like ten copybooks with equations).

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe astrology is total nonsense....but that's a typical Aries response, of course.

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

[ QUOTE ]
sklansky would rather have a son addicted to heroine instead of one that belived in astrology

[/ QUOTE ]

I never went to the thread, but I can relate to what DS was expressing (??). Heroin addiction can be cured. Astrology addiction is more indicative of inherent problems with brain/mind structure, and even if the specific issue of astrology can be addressed, there is still the perhaps unsolvable situation of "a mind that could be seduced by astrology". That is scary.

luckyme,
my mind would change, if it thought I was wrong.

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

Astrology is awesome. I would rather my son believe in astrology than be addicted to meth.

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Astrology addiction is more indicative of inherent problems with brain/mind structure

[/ QUOTE ]

So is a heroin addiction.

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Astrology addiction is more indicative of inherent problems with brain/mind structure


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



So is a heroin addiction.




[/ QUOTE ]

You are both wrong?

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Astrology addiction is more indicative of inherent problems with brain/mind structure


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



So is a heroin addiction.




[/ QUOTE ]

You are both wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Be quiet, the adults are speaking.

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was wondering whats your vision on astrology( I used the search function and it turns out that sklansky would rather have a son addicted to heroine instead of one that belived in astrology in spite of the evidence, but all the debate was about that statement)
Anyway whats your vision about astrology?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't help but to remember a scene in Long Dark Teatime of the Soul, which is the second Dirk Gently book by the late Douglas Adams.

In the book, Dirk knows the person who writes the horoscopes for the newspaper. For whatever reason, the horoscope writer always makes awful predictions for Dirk. It ends with a comment to the effect that the newspaper didn't understand why it lost 1/12th of its readers.

I guess that sums up what I think of astrology.

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

[ QUOTE ]
it turns out that sklansky would rather have a son addicted to heroine instead of one that belived in astrology in spite of the evidence

[/ QUOTE ]

What evidence? That's the problem of astrology. It makes a series of assertions based upon theories that have no evidence. However, it is coincidentally correct enough times that anecdotal stories allow it to perpetuate.

To believe in astrology is to ignore human reason.

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it turns out that sklansky would rather have a son addicted to heroine instead of one that belived in astrology in spite of the evidence

[/ QUOTE ]
What evidence?

[/ QUOTE ]
The evidence against it. There is plenty.

(You're reading the sentence with an implicit "for it" at the end, but that's not what it says.)

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it turns out that sklansky would rather have a son addicted to heroine instead of one that belived in astrology in spite of the evidence

[/ QUOTE ]
What evidence?

[/ QUOTE ]
The evidence against it. There is plenty.

(You're reading the sentence with an implicit "for it" at the end, but that's not what it says.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops. I assumed that the original author included the "in spite of the evidence" as a modifier to argue against Slansky's view.

Hmmm... my bias is so strong against astrology that I probably couldn't be persuasive...

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Astrology addiction is more indicative of inherent problems with brain/mind structure

[/ QUOTE ]

So is a heroin addiction.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heroin addiction is easier to cure because you only need to deal with the specific addictive nature that herion is laying on the person. You can become heroin addicted by forced injection or twists on that, you don't need a certain type of mind in order to 'accept' the addiction.

It's not just a matter of an 'addictive personality'... if you get hooked on herion you're hooked, no types of people excluded. Astrology, otoh, requires something faulty in the reasoning dept, and astrology is just evidence of it, it's not the cause.

luckyme

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Heroin addiction is easier to cure because you only need to deal with the specific addictive nature that herion is laying on the person.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty naive. You do realize that most people who have done heroin tried it once or twice, then stopped, right? Yes, it's addictive, and so is oxy and opium...I've done them at parties before, then yes, there was a mild craving the day after, but I just said no, that's the start of addiction, stopped, and never had a problem with it. Same is true of heroin from what most of the people I know who've tried it have said. Addiction always requires a certain kind of ignorance.

[ QUOTE ]
You can become heroin addicted by forced injection or twists on that

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you don't. That doesn't even happen! Who forces people to inject heroin?

I have trouble believing that an "astrology" addiction is as bad as a heroin addiction can be, and in the most extreme cases, I'd say it's a general dependance on New Agey spirituality, but that's far from incurable. Hell, I used to be a pretty naive new ager (my astrology library would probably shock you [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]), but once I realized that it causes more harm than good, I decided to break from it. Anyone willing to get control of their life can do the same, and it's the same will that's needed to break a heroin addiction...except you don't need methadone for an astrology addiction [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

I have a bit to say on the subject.

Four years ago I was actually very interested in astrology, and wanted to be a professional natal chart reader (I was making side bucks as a tarot reader at the time too). There is a little bit more to astrology than generalizations in the newspaper; the "science" of astrology usually involves a natal chart, which is a personalized graph depicting the placement of all the planets, the moon, and the horizon based on the time and place of birth. This results in a somewhat personalized chart for each person. (For example, I'm a mid-aries with third triant libra rising, moon in aquarius, etc.) There is a little more specificity than one might think.

I used to, as an exercise, have people send me natal data of people I didn't know so I could write analyses of them and see how accurate they were. I had some arguably good results. My best was guessing that the woman the chart referred to was a pre-school art teacher who taught with the desks arranged in a circle (I still don't know how I did that). I've seen a few professional delineations that seemed pretty accurate (had a few amazing tarot readings too).

I stopped the new age stuff after being disgusted with my ex-girlfriend, who spent more money on crystals than on bills, and pretty much had no control over her life. I agree, there's no scientific reason to believe astrology has any merit (even new agers fail to give a decent...or ANY...explanation in this regard) so I don't put much faith in it, or really care whether it's true or not. And secondly, astrology is not terribly useful, so it doesn't really matter.

If you want to prove or disprove astrology objectively, there's an obvious scientific experiment that could be performed: gather together a bunch of random people and get their natal data. Then get the world's best astrologers, and have them interact with the subjects, let them ask questions (obviously stuff regarding their birthdays is off limits), then have the astrologer try and identify the subject's chart from a short list, like multiple choice. Or, alternatively, give the astrologer one chart and have the astrologer interview several subjects, and assign the chart to the correct subject. Repeat ad nauseum with a large sample size.

A statistically significant correlation will confirm natal astrology, a random distribution will debunk it.

To my knowledge, no such experiment has every been done, although I'm pretty sure it would settle the score pretty well. Unlike, say, religion, astrology is a simple process with mundane results, so you can disprove it empirically. I don't know what the results would be. I lean toward random given my skepticism, but I'd kind of like to see some truth to it. I'm mostly apathetic toward it, but it is "neat" nonetheless, and I think it's fun to think about.

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

The constellations are an accident of how the stars happen to line up from one among an infinity of possible points of view. For example, the principal star of Orion, Sirius, is 8.6 light years from Earth. But the stars of the belt are approximately 1,500 light-years away.

The belt is an accident of perspective. From other parts of space these three stars would form a triangle or their order would be reversed. From just the right angle, all three of them would merge in a single light, an apparent triple star. Were you in the center of the space that the three stars enclosed, each would appear in a far-flung corner of the sky.

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

Um, Sirius is not in Orion. Sirius is in Canis Major. Rigel and Betelgeuse are the principle stars in Orion.

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

[ QUOTE ]
From just the right angle, all three of them would merge in a single light, an apparent triple star.

[/ QUOTE ]

No they wouldn't... the stars aren't collinear.

Edit: I can spell, really I can.

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

Yeah, it's in the nearby dog, thanks.

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

Hmm, thanks. I got the information from Miss Leavitt's Stars by George Johnson. I guess you can't believe everything you read.

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess you can't believe everything you read.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your posts in the politics forum are proof of that! [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

I think astrology is pure hogwash.

Having said that, it seems more rational than religion, if not to the extent that its supporters would imply.

Look at it this way... The season you are born in, a function of your birthday, would mean that your earliest experiences would be different. Born in winter, you'd be rugged under blanket, in summer you'd be half naked in your crib. So, imo, people born around the same date, in the same place, would have similar early experience and, if those are deterministic in any way, would make for later developing similar traits.

As I said, it is hogwash, imo, just slightly less unreasonable than religion. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] At the very least, you can give it a pretense of reasonableness.

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Astrology addiction is more indicative of inherent problems with brain/mind structure

[/ QUOTE ]

So is a heroin addiction.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heroin addiction is easier to cure because you only need to deal with the specific addictive nature that herion is laying on the person. You can become heroin addicted by forced injection or twists on that, you don't need a certain type of mind in order to 'accept' the addiction.

It's not just a matter of an 'addictive personality'... if you get hooked on herion you're hooked, no types of people excluded. Astrology, otoh, requires something faulty in the reasoning dept, and astrology is just evidence of it, it's not the cause.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

That's wrong - addicts have a different brain chemistry and physiology. It's true that in some imaginable situation, say a person administered opiates as an anasthetic over a period of time, could develop a physical dependency. But after detox the cravings would go. That person isn't an addict, addiction is biological, and when people refer to an 'addictive personality', the reference is to that brain chemistry. You're an addict in the same way you're, for instance, gay.

Addiction can be treated but it can't be cured, hence the expression 'once an addict always an addict'.

A belief in astrology may or may not have some basis in brain wiring, but it certainly can be changed - people change their idealogies and beliefs all the time.

Asides from any of that, I'm sure the original remark was throwaway/semi-humourous - nobody in their right mind would wish heroin addiction on their child over a belief in astrology.



As a sidenote - I read an interesting piece on astrology somewhere once. It was arguing that newborn brain development is largely governed by atmospheric pressure and gravitational forces, which changes seasonally, and as a result of planetary movement. And was suggesting that astrology had some vague scientific basis as a loose and symbolic representation of that.

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Addiction can be treated but it can't be cured, hence the expression 'once an addict always an addict'.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it can be cured. It's harder in some than others, though.

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

To quote Dr. Frinkx
"The one true science"

Astrology experiment
 

the arguments like:
-"virgo are the older ones in the class so they are slightly more paasive, while Leo more agressive."
Are absolutely nonsense. I was born in Chile and actually Aries(picsis in some schools)are the oldest one in the class because school starts in March. Please note that since Im a chilean cancer I was born in Winter instead of summer.
Btw I do know about ascendant and stuff, hmpoker...ok I might do an experiment, I will post it on OOTF. But I need to gather a lot of info first.

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Addiction can be treated but it can't be cured, hence the expression 'once an addict always an addict'.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it can be cured. It's harder in some than others, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can treat addicts in so far as you can get an addict to stop using. But addiction to drugs like heroin permanently alters brain chemistry. A recovered addict can never be an occasional user of an addictive substance in the way a non-addict can be, so can never be 'cured' - the compulsivity remains and needs to be continually monitored. That's really not my opinion, so much as it's accross the board accepted wisdom in addiction medicine.

And, I wasn't for one minute suggesting astrology is something I think has much merit, I was just mentioning that article because I thought it was interesting [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Astrology experiment
 

[ QUOTE ]
Btw I do know about ascendant and stuff, hmpoker...ok I might do an experiment, I will post it on OOTF. But I need to gather a lot of info first.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't waste your time. It would be pretty expensive to do it correctly, and I doubt you will.

Re: Astrology experiment
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Btw I do know about ascendant and stuff, hmpoker...ok I might do an experiment, I will post it on OOTF. But I need to gather a lot of info first.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't waste your time. It would be pretty expensive to do it correctly, and I doubt you will.

[/ QUOTE ]
and you dont need any evidence to realise that astrology is bogus.

chez

Re: Astrology experiment
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Btw I do know about ascendant and stuff, hmpoker...ok I might do an experiment, I will post it on OOTF. But I need to gather a lot of info first.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't waste your time. It would be pretty expensive to do it correctly, and I doubt you will.

[/ QUOTE ]
and you dont need any evidence to realise that astrology is bogus.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but other people do.

Re: Astrology experiment
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Btw I do know about ascendant and stuff, hmpoker...ok I might do an experiment, I will post it on OOTF. But I need to gather a lot of info first.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't waste your time. It would be pretty expensive to do it correctly, and I doubt you will.

[/ QUOTE ]
and you dont need any evidence to realise that astrology is bogus.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but other people do.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've never seen any evidence of that [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] or more precisley I never seen a believer in credulous theory X make correct use of evidence to stop believing in that theory. You do get people who believe X because of positive results who then stop believing X because of negative results, but they're just making the same mistake twice.

chez

Re: Astrology experiment
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Btw I do know about ascendant and stuff, hmpoker...ok I might do an experiment, I will post it on OOTF. But I need to gather a lot of info first.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't waste your time. It would be pretty expensive to do it correctly, and I doubt you will.

[/ QUOTE ]
and you dont need any evidence to realise that astrology is bogus.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but other people do.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've never seen any evidence of that [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] or more precisley I never seen a believer in credulous theory X make correct use of evidence to stop believing in that theory. You do get people who believe X because of positive results who then stop believing X because of negative results, but they're just making the same mistake twice.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmmmmm...ok, you have a point there. This study would only shake the beliefs of those who have just a detached belief in astrology, and aren't irrationally attached to it.

However, I'd argue that there are more proportionally astrologers that belong in that category than believers of, say, Christianity, and for good reason. New age spirituality is a little less rigid than other religions, and attracts more unconventional minds. Also, astrology doesn't sentence you to hell if you don't believe in astrology, and it's much easier to disprove than religion.

But yes, even if such a study were diligently conducted and disproved astrology, you would still have fat moo-moo and patchouli oil wearing crystal waving middle age twats telling you that you have an energy imbalance in your seventh house and that they can cleanse your chakras for $300.

Re: Astrology experiment
 

[ QUOTE ]
But yes, even if such a study were diligently conducted and disproved astrology, you would still have fat moo-moo and patchouli oil wearing crystal waving middle age twats telling you that you have an energy imbalance in your seventh house and that they can cleanse your chakras for $300.

[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Its so much better when they're thin and young.

chez

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

Touche.

But why limit the point to the politics forum? [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

The stars don't have to be colinear to appear to merge, if you're far enough away

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

I think astrology is nonsense. If there was some higher power controlling everything, why would they want to show us anything by arranging stars in a certain manner?

Re: How do you view astrology?
 

My magic 8-Ball says astrology is bunk.