80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

Bay 101

I've been in the game about an hour or two and I talked to Sucker briefly before he got in the game so he knows who I am, and I know him, etc... He also knows that I haven't played a whole lot of the 80 game, I've usually been playing the 40.

Sucker sits down and posts behind the button, it's folded to him and he raises, Button and SB fold, I call in the BB with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] . We're heads up.

Flop: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I check, he bets, I raise, he 3-bets, I call.

Turn: T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I check, he checks

River: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet, he calls.

Comments on all streets appreciated.

Results and thoughts later.

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

not to be rude (we all have to try and be on best behavior lately) but this looks like a yawner

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

I'd 3 bet preflop, as he is likely raising with (almost) any two there, AQo is a monster. I realise you were likely "slowplaying" preflop, but I don't like it (you should be 3 betting a tonne of hands there).

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

Check the river. You want to give him a chance to bluff or bet an A.

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

I'd re-raise PF. You're ahead of most hands he makes this move with IMO. As played, I dont like the flop c'r. Looks to much like you're just on a steal kind of thing like "i know you dont have anything yet" and he's like "i know you dont have any of that either, we're going to the turn" type move. I would have just called the flop and probably either led the turn or c'r the turn. I like the river bet, and his call to me looks like an A little hand.



Tex

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

[ QUOTE ]
not to be rude (we all have to try and be on best behavior lately) but this looks like a yawner

[/ QUOTE ]

Is my play standard then? I feel like I botched one street.

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

In the new style FCR {}

Preflop FCR{0, 50%, 50%}
Flop B, C/C, C/R {33%, 33%, 33%}

I think I'm in the lead on all of these but this is a good spot to mix things up. Because I can now play SO many hands this way. The percentages will change but my C/R no longer clarifies my hand, nor does any other action.

If I check raised the flop I'm betting now. 90%
If I check called the flop I'm B, C/R {50% , 50%} This is highly based on the villian.
If I bet out on the flop I'm betting now. 90%

River: C/R, B {25%, 75%}

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
not to be rude (we all have to try and be on best behavior lately) but this looks like a yawner

[/ QUOTE ]

Is my play standard then? I feel like I botched one street.

[/ QUOTE ]

HU vs a potential blind steal is never standard IMO.
This is a situation where a player can gain (or lose) a lot of checks in the long run. (By properly stealing or protecting)

What was your thought process on the turn?
- Were you hoping he would bet and you could get a bluff to put more checks in?
- Were you looking to check raise?
- Did you think he had you beat and were laying this down at some point?
- Other?

That might help to explain if your play was correct. In our opinions - which also may or may not be correct [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

River c/r time.

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

[ QUOTE ]
As played, I dont like the flop c'r. Looks to much like you're just on a steal kind of thing like "i know you dont have anything yet" and he's like "i know you dont have any of that either, we're going to the turn"

[/ QUOTE ]

who's nothing do you think is better?

and who's nothing doesn't really mind putting in 3 bets on the flop?

Barron

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

[ QUOTE ]
River c/r time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

Seems to me there are two ways to get one more bet on the river.
- You bet he makes a crying call
- You check he makes a bluff bet

(If number 1 > number 2 then a bet is in order)

Other possibilities:
He has a ace (smaller or bigger) or some other hand that beats you (not sure how this is possible).
- You bet he raises you call (win or lose 2 bets)
Usually I would expect you win, but will be unwilling to risk a 3 bet.

- You check raise he 3 bets (Are you laying it down?). Lose 3 bets almost always.
Usually I would expect you lost.

I would do the hand combo thing but I find that the assumptions of creating what's possible is so wide that a 'feel' is better in this case than some numbers with potentially large errors.

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
not to be rude (we all have to try and be on best behavior lately) but this looks like a yawner

[/ QUOTE ]

Is my play standard then? I feel like I botched one street.

[/ QUOTE ]

the turn? are you thinking you should have led out because he checked behind, possibly with a draw?

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bay 101

I've been in the game about an hour or two and I talked to Sucker briefly before he got in the game so he knows who I am, and I know him, etc... He also knows that I haven't played a whole lot of the 80 game, I've usually been playing the 40.

Sucker sits down and posts behind the button, it's folded to him and he raises, Button and SB fold, I call in the BB with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] . We're heads up.

Flop: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I check, he bets, I raise, he 3-bets, I call.

Turn: T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I check, he checks

River: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet, he calls.

Comments on all streets appreciated.

Results and thoughts later.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd check-raise the river.
-James


EDIT: God damn you gambler for responding first! But seriously, if it isn't obvious his hand is Ax or unpaired flush draw on the turn, then I am really out of touch with how live poker plays. Check-raise the river and cackle loudly.

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
River c/r time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

Seems to me there are two ways to get one more bet on the river.
- You bet he makes a crying call
- You check he makes a bluff bet

(If number 1 > number 2 then a bet is in order)

Other possibilities:
He has a ace (smaller or bigger) or some other hand that beats you (not sure how this is possible).
- You bet he raises you call (win or lose 2 bets)
Usually I would expect you win, but will be unwilling to risk a 3 bet.

- You check raise he 3 bets (Are you laying it down?). Lose 3 bets almost always.
Usually I would expect you lost.

I would do the hand combo thing but I find that the assumptions of creating what's possible is so wide that a 'feel' is better in this case than some numbers with potentially large errors.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to use some hand-reading here. It's highly unlikely that Sucker has anything besides a missed draw or an ace. Both of which he should bet on the river, one of which he will not call a bet on the river.
-James

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

Here is what I'd do. 3 bet preflop 90% or the time and all just 10% of the time. If he raises me on the flop I'd 3 bet about 60% of the time and call 40% of the time. If he 4 bets me I check fold turn otherwise check/call the turn. The river I bet out about 70% of the time and c/r 30% of the time....

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

You're giving up quite a bit by not check/raising the river.

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

Am I going to be the first one to have to beg for a three-bet preflop here or what? I assume you didnt do it for deception purposes and possibly thought you might be able to extract more from him later on? Is this worth it?

Mike Emery

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

If he got sucker to go 3-bets with a worse ace or draw then it was worth it.

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
River c/r time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

Seems to me there are two ways to get one more bet on the river.
- You bet he makes a crying call
- You check he makes a bluff bet

(If number 1 > number 2 then a bet is in order)

Other possibilities:
He has a ace (smaller or bigger) or some other hand that beats you (not sure how this is possible).
- You bet he raises you call (win or lose 2 bets)
Usually I would expect you win, but will be unwilling to risk a 3 bet.

- You check raise he 3 bets (Are you laying it down?). Lose 3 bets almost always.
Usually I would expect you lost.

I would do the hand combo thing but I find that the assumptions of creating what's possible is so wide that a 'feel' is better in this case than some numbers with potentially large errors.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is just wrong.

AK bets the turn. his most likely hand by far is an ace. this is a standard river checkraise. especiallyy given pf call.

Barron

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

3 bet preflop and c/r the river.

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

[ QUOTE ]
3 bet preflop and c/r the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

If you felt you were ahead on the flop... did you consider a 4 bet?

It seems to me that JA is very capable of going 3 bets on the flop with nothing, as well as with something. However, he is definitely less likely to go 5 bets with nothing.

If you put 4 bets in and lead the turn then you have the abiltiy to make JA define his hand properly. Especially, if you felt you had the best hand.

As the play turned out, I think I would let JA bluffvalue bet at the pot and c/r.

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you felt you were ahead on the flop... did you consider a 4 bet?

It seems to me that JA is very capable of going 3 bets on the flop with nothing, as well as with something. However, he is definitely less likely to go 5 bets with nothing.

If you put 4 bets in and lead the turn then you have the abiltiy to make JA define his hand properly. Especially, if you felt you had the best hand.

As the play turned out, I think I would let JA bluffvalue bet at the pot and c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not obvious we are ahead of JA until the turn. That said, I just want to echo the sentiments of the other posters that a 3 bet pf here is obvious as a standard play, but calling and cr-ing any flop from time to time is good too.
-James

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

"I just want to echo the sentiments of the other posters that a 3 bet pf here is obvious as a standard play,"

no. i think in theory it is standard because if one really thinks about it, it's the best way to start getting value out of the hand (there are several other good reasons too), but my experience is most players good or not will just flat call this preflop with deception and "let's see a flop first" being the main reasons.

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

Well, good point barron. Our nothing is probably better than JA's nothing.

That being said, I'd re-raise PF and try to CR the river.


Tex

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

[ QUOTE ]
River c/r time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think so too.

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

[ QUOTE ]
"I just want to echo the sentiments of the other posters that a 3 bet pf here is obvious as a standard play,"

no. i think in theory it is standard because if one really thinks about it, it's the best way to start getting value out of the hand (there are several other good reasons too), but my experience is most players good or not will just flat call this preflop with deception and "let's see a flop first" being the main reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

By "standard" I mean the play that makes the most money in a vacuum and the play that I do the vast majority of the time. I'd venture that most live players call here but most online players 3 bet at comparable stakes. I know when I play live I always get mindfucked because everyone seems to be calling big aces in the blinds.
-James

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

In general, I like the smoothcall preflop in this spot with a view to checkraising any flop other than those that you hit.

But I would change my flop plans here when it comes down 522.

When you checkraise that flop, Sucker should know you are prolly full of it. If you had a pp, you would 3 bet preflop. You prolly don't have a 5 or 2 particularly since you are stepping up to the 80 game from your usual 40 game. Your checkraise on the flop should look like Ax or a flush draw to sucker and he will play it accordingly.

Besides, when the flop comes JT3 and you checkraise, Sucker might fold a hand like 88 either then or on the turn. He ain't folding 88 (and probably not folding any two cards) when the flop is 522.

So, I would just call preflop and just checkcall the flop.

BTW, my new book "Checkcall your way to Millions" is just about ready for the printers. Pre-orders accepted...heh

Having played it the way you did, the river checkraise is the much better play for resaons given by Jmaes, Mike l, Barron et al. But for PR reasons, I never made that play when playing live (keep in mind that I used to play in a realtively small cardroom where everyone knows everyone). Online, I would have no qualms with pulling the river checkraise trigger.

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

[ QUOTE ]
But for PR reasons, I never made that play when playing live (keep in mind that I used to play in a realtively small cardroom where everyone knows everyone).

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have qualms about checkraising, not only should you quit poker permanently, but you should seriously consider killing yourself.

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

I feel it's clear he has a naked Ace on the turn when he checks and if he doesn't he'll bluff bet often enough at the Ace on the river to warrant a river check-raise.

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

"I'd venture that most live players call here but most online players 3 bet at comparable stakes."

i completely agree.

"when I play live I always get mindfucked because everyone seems to be calling big aces in the blinds."

exactly. i almost said something about this distinction but wasnt sure if it was the case online. thanks.

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

"If you had a pp, you would 3 bet preflop."

my read is hero would flat call preflop with 66-22, maybe 77.

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

Here are some of my thoughts on the hand:

The street I feel I messed up was the river, I really wish I had checkraised. I thought about it at the time, but I didn't want to feel like an idiot if it went "check, check".

When Sucker 3-bets the flop and checks the turn, it pretty much confirms he doesn't have a pair and he wanted a cheap river. Overcard hands/draws are the most likely candidates, so that ace either hit him, or it represents the perfect bluff card for him to fire on. Either way he is very likely to bet the river allowing me to checkraise.

Regarding preflop: I agree that 3-betting preflop is fine, and the standard play, but I don't think calling is bad either. It disguises the strength of my hand and since Sucker will likely autobet every flop, I plan on checkraising most flops.

Sucker's range here preflop is very wide. If I reraise he is alerted that I have something decent and 3 small bets preflop may be all I get out of him. I will also be out of position against a player who is definitely capable of testing me if he can narrow my hand range. i.e. I 3-bet preflop, lead, he raises me on a blank turn....not an easy decision for me holding an unimproved AQ.

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But for PR reasons, I never made that play when playing live (keep in mind that I used to play in a realtively small cardroom where everyone knows everyone).

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have qualms about checkraising, not only should you quit poker permanently, but you should seriously consider killing yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

You clearly either:

1.) Lack serious reading comprehension

or

2.) Think that "the big picture" refers to a movie screen.

Josh

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

No qualms about checkraising in general.

But river checkraises in spots such as this where you are clearly sending a signal that you have just outplayed your opponent was one that I consciously avoided in live play in our small cardroom.

Our games were great: loose, lots of friendly chat, hardly anyone cussing at you or the dealers for bad beats etc. There were also huge pots (frequently over a grand in our 10-20 game). The last thing I wanted to do was get under a guy's skin for a measly 1 extra big bet by checkraising the river in a spot like this. It was counterproductive in that particular environment.

Checkraising when the board was K7397 and I held A7 is a different story. No one gets pissed off at that.

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

[ QUOTE ]
not to be rude (we all have to try and be on best behavior lately) but this looks like a yawner

[/ QUOTE ]
Heh, my first reaction is that the hand was played pretty poorly. PF is fine I guess (though I reraise here), but if I just flat called PF I'm definitely 4-betting the flop here. As the first 3 streets were played, the river bet blows HARD. Not nearly enough bets went in on this hand.

GoT

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

[ QUOTE ]
3 bet preflop and c/r the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
this is really all that needs to be said.

PS. this is the easiest river CR in the history.

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

You should seriously consider the ramifications of killing the game.

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

[ QUOTE ]
In general, I like the smoothcall preflop in this spot with a view to checkraising any flop other than those that you hit.

But I would change my flop plans here when it comes down 522.

When you checkraise that flop, Sucker should know you are prolly full of it. If you had a pp, you would 3 bet preflop. You prolly don't have a 5 or 2 particularly since you are stepping up to the 80 game from your usual 40 game. Your checkraise on the flop should look like Ax or a flush draw to sucker and he will play it accordingly.

Besides, when the flop comes JT3 and you checkraise, Sucker might fold a hand like 88 either then or on the turn. He ain't folding 88 (and probably not folding any two cards) when the flop is 522.

So, I would just call preflop and just checkcall the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks SKP, I was starting to think I must suck reading all the replies. I definitely mix up what I do with AQ in the BB vs a steal so I agree that the call isn't bad. I also agree that this isn't the type of flop to checkraise, although if you do checkraise you probably should cap his impending 3-bet.

You didn't mention your turn action so maybe I still suck. If I happen to just call preflop with AQ here, I would check-call the flop and donk any turn. This way we put in the same amount of bets and avoid giving a free card.

Re: 80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker
 

[ QUOTE ]
Regarding preflop: I agree that 3-betting preflop is fine, and the standard play, but I don't think calling is bad either. It disguises the strength of my hand and since Sucker will likely autobet every flop, I plan on checkraising most flops.

Sucker's range here preflop is very wide. If I reraise he is alerted that I have something decent and 3 small bets preflop may be all I get out of him. I will also be out of position against a player who is definitely capable of testing me if he can narrow my hand range. i.e. I 3-bet preflop, lead, he raises me on a blank turn....not an easy decision for me holding an unimproved AQ.


[/ QUOTE ]

I find all this preflop discussion pretty interesting. I would understand the flop call more if this was a standard CO open raise but this was him raising his stinking post. However, in this situation the flat call and your thinking seems a bit weak tight. I think this is a time when you really need to 3 bet for metagame reasons in addition to just flat out value. You need to tell him not to fuuck with you and put the tough decision on him. Forget how you feel betting unimproved AQ on the turn and start thinking how HE will feel with 55 on a JK3 board.