20/40 hand. I don\'t know about this one.
 

6-handed 20/40 table. I raise in the CO with ATo. A generic 40/15 player calls on the button, a super-duper-famous 2+2'er that seems to play pretty tight and that just sat down calls in the SB, and some random dude calls in the BB.

Flop comes Q42r. SB checks, BB checks, I . . . check?

The obvious thing to do here is bet, but I'm suspecting that the super-famous 2+2'er might well have called there with a pocket, in which case here comes da checkraise. And I'm very tired of getting raised with my A-high at the 20/40 game.

Anyway, tell me what y'all think and then I'll tell you what I did.

Re: 20/40 hand. I don\'t know about this one.
 

Against two players I fire almost every time, against three I think it's real close and you should mix it up some percentage of the time, table dynamics play into this too.

I may fire once here if I have a decent image since it's a pretty dry rainbow flop and only one card in the playing zone. If I miss on a more coordinated board I probably check it.

Re: 20/40 hand. I don\'t know about this one.
 

I bet. If SB CRes and its HU I call and fold the turn UI.

Re: 20/40 hand. I don\'t know about this one.
 

the super-duper famous 2+2er i think calls with more hands than just PP's. i'd bet, of course.

Re: 20/40 hand. I don\'t know about this one.
 

I'd bet. If SB checkraises don't forget to raise a K turn.

Re: 20/40 hand. I don\'t know about this one.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If SB checkraises don't forget to raise a K turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

$$

Re: 20/40 hand. I don\'t know about this one.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If SB checkraises don't forget to raise a K turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

$$

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Good thinkin'.

Okay, so I guess I should have bet. Bastards.
 

It's just that betting there is so obvious, and people seem to play back at me at 20/40 all the time when I do something obvious, that I thought a check here would be good -- saves me a couple of bets if I get checkraised or raised by the button, and I thought that that would happen at least 50% of the time.

Anyway, I checked, button bet, and much to my surprise, the 2+2'er and the BB folded, just leaving little ole me.

I checkraise. Given the situation, is this the right play? It definitely looks odd, I'll give you that.

Re: Okay, so I guess I should have bet. Bastards.
 

i dont really like the checkraise... looks like youre FOS and he mioght make a big play at u by calling and raising turn w/ nothing.... just call and see the turn... prob checkcall him down.

Re: 20/40 hand. I don\'t know about this one.
 

dude, i call a boatload of hands here.

Re: 20/40 hand. I don\'t know about this one.
 

the flop c/r looks sooo fishy. Fortunately, a 40/15 may not be in tune enough to pick up on that. If the famous 2er c/rs and you know his range could be as wide as weak PPs / A-hi then go ahead and raise lots of turns. I crash flops though, so i'd probably 3bet/lead if I felt that said 2er was familiar iwth my playstyle.

Surf

Re: Okay, so I guess I should have bet. Bastards.
 

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It's just that betting there is so obvious, and people seem to play back at me at 20/40 all the time when I do something obvious

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Sounds like you need to clear your head. They play back at you because you haven't narrowed your range! (I'm sure you know this). Putting 2 big bets in with 25% equity in a ~8 big bet pot isn't the end of the world.

You could try folding your ATo faceup preflop next time. That oughta take'em by surprise. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 20/40 hand. I don\'t know about this one.
 

[ QUOTE ]
the flop c/r looks sooo fishy. Fortunately, a 40/15 may not be in tune enough to pick up on that. If the famous 2er c/rs and you know his range could be as wide as weak PPs / A-hi then go ahead and raise lots of turns. I crash flops though, so i'd probably 3bet/lead if I felt that said 2er was familiar iwth my playstyle.

Surf

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Well, I wasn't sure it looked "fishy", but it definitely didn't look common, and that's partly what I was looking for. You're right, though, it was a bit odd. Problem was that given the surprise that SB and BB folded, I didn't like the alternatives. There's nothing technically wrong with going for a turn checkraise, I s'pose, except that if he checks behind then he gets another peek for 6 outs on the river. And I have to put in more money that way, and I think that in that game people believe turn checkraises less than they do flop ones.

I dunno, I'm graspin' at straws here.

I'll post more results after getting more comments (expecting a few more, I hope).

Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
i dont really like the checkraise... looks like youre FOS and he mioght make a big play at u by calling and raising turn w/ nothing.... just call and see the turn... prob checkcall him down.

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If I checkcall him down then I have zero chance to get him to fold a small pocket or piece, or AJ. One thing about the 20/40'ers that they don't have in common with the 10/20'ers is that they are relentless value-bettors and the little buggers just KNOW when you're calling down with A-high.

Really, really tired of that.

Anyway, I checkraised the flop, he called. A blank (a 7?) fell on the turn. I bet, he thought for about 21 minutes and then called. The river paired the board (a 4 I think) and I shot my last barrel. He thought for about 82 minutes and finally folded.

So it worked. Whether it was a fluke, or good play, is the reason I posted here. I'm not surprised that almost everyone is telling me to follow the standard bet the flop line, or the call-down line, but in my experiencing doing what You're Supposed To Do with crap unimproved aces in these situations ta 20/40 is costing me money. So I guess I'm still lost. (Though admittedly, this flop is SO dry that betting out is probably best.)

Another advantage to what I did -- when I checked on this super-dry flop, any thinking player with a tiny pocket or piece had to be worried that that looked very suspicious, and might have folded. That is, in this line it's slightly more possible that the SB/BB would fold an ISD or tiny pocket than if I had bet straight out. No?

I know that my eyebrows would have shot up if the preflop raiser didn't bet when it was checked to him on a board of Q42r.

Re: Results
 

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doing what You're Supposed To Do with crap unimproved aces in these situations ta 20/40 is costing me money.

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I am a prolific flop checker after raising preflop when I have 3 opponents or more and maybe that is a leak of mine, but with two opponents I virtually always bet. If I understand correctly the reason you are "supposed to" bet is that you are getting at least 6 to 1 odds and if you check they may very well take the pot away from you with a worse hand or with a turned better hand that you gave unlimited odds to on the flop. If they both fold immediately on the flop more than 1 time in 7 then your bet is profitable even if you have blank cards. Combine that with the chances that you get it heads up and make it to the showdown for 1 more big bet, and the flop bet that you feel like you are pissing away is nearly mandatory in my opinion.

I often check with 3 opponents or more because the chances that either they all fold immediately to the flop bet or that one of them just calls with a worse hand seems to drop more than the extra money in the pot can compensate for. Should I usually be betting the flop with Ace high even against 3 opponents after raising preflop?

Thanks,
Cartman

Re: Results
 

i am nearly positive u had the best hand.

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
Should I usually be betting the flop with Ace high even against 3 opponents after raising preflop?


[/ QUOTE ]


At 20/40, I don't think so. I often follow the same line that you do Cartman. The OP summed up my feelings at 20/40 with this line:

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not surprised that almost everyone is telling me to follow the standard bet the flop line, or the call-down line, but in my experiencing doing what You're Supposed To Do with crap unimproved aces in these situations at 20/40 is costing me money.

[/ QUOTE ]


My one concern here, and this is something I feel I personally need to work on, is checking a slightly higher percentage of made hands on the flop to account for this, as I fire at this pot at lower limits. However, if one adds this check into their reportoire without some sort of compensation, then a flop check means with utmost certainty "hey guys I missed" every time, and these 20/40 bastards will exploit the crap out of this...

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Should I usually be betting the flop with Ace high even against 3 opponents after raising preflop?


[/ QUOTE ]


At 20/40, I don't think so. I often follow the same line that you do Cartman. The OP summed up my feelings at 20/40 with this line:

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not surprised that almost everyone is telling me to follow the standard bet the flop line, or the call-down line, but in my experiencing doing what You're Supposed To Do with crap unimproved aces in these situations at 20/40 is costing me money.

[/ QUOTE ]


My one concern here, and this is something I feel I personally need to work on, is checking a slightly higher percentage of made hands on the flop to account for this, as I fire at this pot at lower limits. However, if one adds this check into their reportoire without some sort of compensation, then a flop check means with utmost certainty "hey guys I missed" every time, and these 20/40 bastards will exploit the crap out of this...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, they exploit the crap out of everything, don't they?

I dunno about the flop checkraise but I really don't think the flop check was that bad. Yes, it was an insanely dry board -- so much so that if I had followed the standard line I wouldn't be surprised if I had to combat someone bluff-raising me. I think this line took the initiative back once I had reason to believe I was safe, and I'm surprised nobody is seeing that possible benefit.

Re: 20/40 hand. I don\'t know about this one.
 

I check there sometimes too, not really on that sort of board though. I'd be more likely to check if it was more coordinated and if my check meant the turn card came out. On this board it is too likely I have the best hand to check.

I think it is bad to call with a small pocket pair in the small blind with a raise and one caller as well, for what it is worth.

Re: 20/40 hand. I don\'t know about this one.
 

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I think it is bad to call with a small pocket pair in the small blind with a raise and one caller as well, for what it is worth.

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Assuming the BB calls, you're putting in 1.5 small bets at a chance (after rake) of pulling in 6.5 small bets. Assuming you need 8:1 odds to win (flopped sets don't always take it), you don't think you make up three big bets postflop if you hit? I admit it's close, and if the BB 3-bets your odds go out the window. But it looks like the odds are there.

And yeah, yeah, super-dry board, I probably should have bet. Problem with 20/40 is it seems my UI aces are gettin' played back at a ton.

PS Next month, rory!

Re: 20/40 hand. I don\'t know about this one.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think it is bad to call with a small pocket pair in the small blind with a raise and one caller as well, for what it is worth.

[/ QUOTE ]

I call with both pairs and Axs when raise is from a good guy in CO, coldcaller inst good and BB isnt LAG. Odds are ok and domination is not that big problem with Ax when CO stealraises and loose player coldcalls on button.

If I had a pocketpair in SB and it was 2nd pair I would often bet out on this dry flop. What will good player do with 1 overcard, which is most likely holding? Its very hard for him to convince himself Im bluffing. And if good player raises its because he is going for a freecard, or because he is hit by pair so if he bets turn I can fold and if he doesnt I can often bet river. We will probably get a call from one of the loose players, but its normally pretty ok and if it isnt, if they are hit or got a great draw somehow, well, they would have called whatever we do on flop.

Re: 20/40 hand. I don\'t know about this one.
 

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I'd bet. If SB checkraises don't forget to raise a K turn.

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does that ever actually work?

Re: 20/40 hand. I don\'t know about this one.
 

it works if you do it sparingly

Re: 20/40 hand. I don\'t know about this one.
 

[ QUOTE ]
super-duper-famous 2+2'er that seems to play pretty tight and that just sat down calls in the SB

[/ QUOTE ]
Meaning we not only fear a second pair, we should also be very concerned that he has top pair. KQ/QJ/QT make really good "just call" hands in this situation.

I think checkcalling the flop is a good idea. Getting the free card is pretty profitable and I doubt we can do better by betting. OTOH, if Button bets I think it's really cool that someone else volunteered to touch the downed power line instead of me.

Re: 20/40 hand. I don\'t know about this one.
 

[ QUOTE ]
OTOH, if Button bets I think it's really cool that someone else volunteered to touch the downed power line instead of me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Extremely well put. That's exactly how I felt, and as I said, felt that if there was a checkraise or whatnot that yay, I saved a bet!

Once those two folded, it was back to war . . . a questionable line in and of itself, but checkraising there just seemed better than calling down or trying to checkraise the turn. Not sure why (at least in the case of the latter).