Bankroll for multitables?
 

I've started playing 2/4 a while ago, and found myself thinking about this problem.

The general rule is 300bb, but how does it change when you play for example 4 tables, or maybe even 8 tables. You can't possible cope with the same BR? Is there an easy formula for this?

Didn't find anything with search and I think this could help many others too [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

I'm not sure but I think the bankroll is the same playing 1 or 8 tables doesn't change anything in a mathematicaly point of view but you can maybe higher your bankroll because of some error risks like clicking the wrong button or making wrong plays.

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

Hmm, haven't looked it from that point of view. Of course you can think it as if you just were playing more hours on 1 table. Thanks!

I thought that the variance would be bigger, but now that I think of it... I'm a complete moron! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

Nope, it's just more hands, that's only variance with time, which is fine! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

I don't agree with that. When you play more tables you higher the risk for error as I already said before. When you play 4 tables (especially with an unadapted monitor) you expose yourself to the risk of wrong play or wrong button clicking. So you may higher your bankroll. or You can make sure you don't make those wrong moves.

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

Well, I wouldn't think it would make too much of a difference, unless you are constantly mis-reading your hand and making costly mistakes.

Most people will gradually move up from 1 table, to 2, to 3, to 4, anyways.

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

That's true that people move up the tables fast but I personally don't think it's a good strategy. Of course playing 4 tables when you get a good hand on a table and rags that you autofold on others causes no problem. The real problem comes when you are delt premieum hand on all of the tables you play and when you missplay your pocket aces and don't protect them correctly you may lose a hole pot on it. This especially happens when you are delet draws and want to see if you have pot odds to call or raise the hand this can be tricky if you have to play 4 tables at once and are limited in timing.

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

that's why you don't jump from 1 table to 4 right away. it's a gradual process of adding tables, and after a while, these "mistakes" almost never occur, and if they do, it probably won't kill ya.

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

I jumped straight from 1 to 4 tables, no problem [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] .

When I jumped from 0.5/1 to 2/4 I also kept 4 tables all the time. Didn't start 2/4 with one table, and have been doing great [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

Wow that's great I personally have an old monitor and seem to have problems 4 tabling so I keep it at 3 [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]. AS said before as far as you don't make stupid mistakes or clicking another button because a window pops up the bankroll can remain the same as if you were playing 1 table.

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

If you can handle multitabling, no higher roll is needed. You're just plowing through the hands faster - there is no change in the amount of variance just because of multitabling.

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

There definatly is, if you have a 15BB/100 variance and your playing at 4 tables, that can be magnified because your playing at 4 tables at once so your vaiance in any given day is greater. You have the ability to win and loose more.

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

no, its win or lose faster. You'll win or lose the same in an identical 1,000 hand stretch whether that 1,000 hands was played 4 tabling or 1 tabling over a couple days. (I know not precise because winrates go down a little bit w/ multitabling, but you get my point.)

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

No

http://picklocksbrain.blogspot.com/i...rquinn_200.jpg

It's amazing how many people still seem to not get this, given how much info. there is on 2+2 about it.

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

OK lets try this again for you people, say you play 4 hours of poker a day. (going to use 50 hands an hour/table for this) When you play one table at a time that will be about 200 hands for the day. Now if your 4 tabeling you will play 800 hands and since your playing more hands that is more variance. Not saying our variance of BB/100 goes up, but because you play more hands logically your variance goes up per hour. Therefor you need a bigger bankroll incase of a downswing, because a downswing with 4 tables is much more costly than with one table.

Now if you 4 table for 1 hour, and 1 table for 4 hours, and you generate the same amount of hands (which is what you guys keep assuming) then the variance is the same.

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

[ QUOTE ]
because you play more hands logically your variance goes up per hour.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your logic stinks.

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Therefor you need a bigger bankroll incase of a downswing

[/ QUOTE ]

Still no.

http://picklocksbrain.blogspot.com/i...rquinn_200.jpg


Think about it this way.
Let's say you are in a regular B&M cardroom.
Suddenly the dealer is able to deal 4x as fast.

Would you need a bigger bankroll for this?

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

my biggest 15/30 downswing (8 tabling session) ever was somewhere between 8K to 10K. that was more than 300BB i suppose and i was playing tight (maybe not good as in my "A" game).

so i'd recommend about 400BB for a 8 tabling BR, since i doubt anyone will ever be as unlucky as me in my recent bad fun [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Kenny

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

Especially for a loosing player,of course you would, most players are not winning players, if a loosing player was delt 4 times more hands, you bet your ass they would need a bigger bankroll.

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

Ok i just pointed that out, if you play the same number of hands, it doesnt' matter if you 4 table or 1 table. But most people that 4 table play 4 times as many hands as someone who 1 tables over the course of a month.

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Especially for a loosing player,of course you would, most players are not winning players, if a loosing player was delt 4 times more hands, you bet your ass they would need a bigger bankroll.

[/ QUOTE ]

:sigh:

No

http://picklocksbrain.blogspot.com/i...rquinn_200.jpg


They would just lose it faster than they would have otherwise.

Also, most fish don't have bankrolls.

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

[ QUOTE ]
But most people that 4 table play 4 times as many hands as someone who 1 tables over the course of a month.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes?

This still doesn't mean they need a larger bankroll than the player who only plays one table.

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

[ QUOTE ]
because you play more hands logically your variance goes up per hour.

[/ QUOTE ]

This statement is correct.

[ QUOTE ]
Therefor you need a bigger bankroll incase of a downswing

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this is incorrect. Do you need a larger bankroll to play 3/6 online than you do live? because you get about twice as many hands per hour online plalying one table

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
because you play more hands logically your variance goes up per hour.

[/ QUOTE ]

This statement is correct.


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Please explain to me how variance will go up by playing more hands per hour. If the variance does increase, one would need a larger bankroll.

Everything I've read on this site has suggested otherwise, and I am fairly sure I understand all the concepts in question.

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

He's confusing "more varience" with "faster varience" or "varience more quickly" and something just isn't clicking with him.

Larger downswings are not going to happen, they are just going to happen more frequently. (as I beat the dead horse to death!)

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

of course your variance remains the same despite the number of hands you are playing per hour, but your hourly variance will increase. So his statement was technically correct since he added per hour at the end, but i don't think it was intentional or clearly understood.

edit: i like dealertoe's explanation above better than mine

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Think about it this way.
Let's say you are in a regular B&M cardroom.
Suddenly the dealer is able to deal 4x as fast.

Would you need a bigger bankroll for this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems like everyone in this thread is making the assumption that adding additional tables has no effect on win rate. So if I can win 3BB/100 at one table, I can do the same on two at once, and can do the same on 3 at once, and can do the same on 4 at once. If you make that assumption, then sure, I don't need a bigger bankroll in order to play 4 at once. I think for the vast majority of players out there, this statement is false. That is, win rate decreases as number of concurrent tables increases. Given that, you do in fact need a bigger bankroll in order to play 4 tables at once. Do you see why?

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

I think there is a difference in winrate, but the question at hand was the size of the bankroll for multitabling. I don't think you need to drastically change the reccomended BR minimum of 300BB by adding tables. Infact I've heard B&M Pros reccomend 200BB, so for all I know the 300BB is plenty cautious.

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Seems like everyone in this thread is making the assumption that adding additional tables has no effect on win rate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody has said that.

Do you see why?

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That is, win rate decreases as number of concurrent tables increases. Given that, you do in fact need a bigger bankroll in order to play 4 tables at once. Do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

Explain it to me.

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

I have read on here (and agree with this notion as well) that if you are comfortable with a 300BB bankroll for 1 or 2 tables you may want to consider 350BB for 4-tabling simply because of the lower win-rate you are likely to have with additional tables.

If your win-rate goes from 3BB/100 at 2 tables to 2.5BB/100 at 4-tables then naturally this could effect your bankroll as well.

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

I have always read (on here) that multitabling does not affect variance in a significant way if you are good at it.

If the variance does not change, I see no reason for a bigger bankroll.

I remember a huge thread devoted to this.
The issue got hammered out in all ways.

Unless I'm remembering something wrong, or all those posters were wrong, I'm not sure why this is still being debated.

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Seems like everyone in this thread is making the assumption that adding additional tables has no effect on win rate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody has said that.

Do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you see that I never said that anyone said it? In fact, I said everyone assumed it. Do you see the difference between someone stating something, and someone assuming something? I assume you don't.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That is, win rate decreases as number of concurrent tables increases. Given that, you do in fact need a bigger bankroll in order to play 4 tables at once. Do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

Explain it to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't tell if you are serious or being facetious. Given the quality of your posts, I'll go with the former.

If player A has a win rate of 100BB/100, and player B has a win rate of 0.1BB/100, do you think they need the same bankroll requirements in order to both avoid losing their entire bankroll? Hopefully everyone can see that they do not have the same requirements. By the same token, someone with a win rate of 3BB/100 has different bankroll requirements as someone with a 2BB/100 win rate.

Now, imagine you can win 3BB/100 playing one table at once. Now what do you think your win rate is if you are playing 100 tables at once? If the answer is less than 3BB/100, then there is some decline as you concurrently add additional tables.

Now, combine the last 2 paragraphs, and you should be able to see that the bankroll requirements of the same player playing 4 tables as opposed to 1 are almost certainly not identical.

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

I'm serious about this.

If what you are saying is true (I have doubts), then everything I've ever read from the respected posters on 2+2 has been completely wrong.

If that's the case, I seriously need to reconsider the advice I've been taking.

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

[ QUOTE ]

If your win-rate goes from 3BB/100 at 2 tables to 2.5BB/100 at 4-tables then naturally this could effect your bankroll as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

bob

if you add more tables but your "true" winrate drops slightly, the extra hands per unit of time should more than make up for it as far as hourly earn, hence the whole idea behind multitabling. If adding extra tables hurts your play (actual hourly winrate) then it defeats the purpose.

If your winrate drops any while multitabling it's not due to any increased variance, but to the quality of your play declining slightly because of increased frequency of decision making, passing on small edges for the sake of waiting for larger ones, miscick errors etc.

edited to bold

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm serious about this.

If what you are saying is true (I have doubts), then everything I've ever read from the respected posters on 2+2 has been completely wrong.

If that's the case, I seriously need to reconsider the advice I've been taking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your risk of losing your bankroll is a function of your win rate and your variance. If you assume that neither of these changes as you add more tables, then your bankroll requirements do not change. I think what you're referring to is that respected posters have said that their win rates and variance do not change significantly when adding more tables, so their bankroll requirements do not change. What I was pointing out is that this is not necessarily true for all people, and I am highly skeptical of anyone who claims that they can play 8 tables as effectively as they can play 1. Maybe what they mean is that when they play 1 table they have 7 IE windows open and are surfing, so adding more poker tables and losing browser windows has no effect on their game. I think that if an 8-tabler were forced to sit down and concentrated on one single game, they would have a higher win rate than they do on 8 concurrently... obviously this is a point of debate, depends on the player, yada yada yada. And it also depends on what you view as a bankroll change. I was being somewhat anal -- maybe bankroll requirements jump from 300BB to 310BB as you add another table. Who knows.. depends completely on the player. If posters out there feel their game doesn't suffer and they can add more tables with no bankroll changes, then great. My only point was that before you jump in and blindly believe that you can add additional tables without more bankroll, you should be confident that your win rate and variance are not affected by adding more tables..

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think what you're referring to is that respected posters have said that their win rates and variance do not change significantly when adding more tables, so their bankroll requirements do not change.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, no.
They all mentioned their winrate dropping.

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My only point was that before you jump in and blindly believe that you can add additional tables without more bankroll, you should be confident that your win rate and variance are not affected by adding more tables..

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Pretty much everyone I've seen has a lower winrate when multitabling. They mentioned it in posts explaining why you don't need a larger bankroll for playing more tables.

I'm shocked by how murky this issue seems to be to some of you all the sudden. I thought it was settled long ago. I'm dead serious when I say that I will have to reconsider almost everything about the way I play poker if it turns out one needs a larger bankroll for multitabling.

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you add more tables but your "true" winrate drops slightly, the extra hands per unit of time should more than make up for it as far as hourly earn, hence the whole idea behind multitabling. If adding extra tables hurts your play (actual hourly winrate) then it defeats the purpose.

If your winrate drops any while multitabling it's not due to any increased variance, but to the quality of your play declining slightly because of increased frequency of decision making, passing on small edges for the sake of waiting for larger ones, miscick errors etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right -- this is dead on. A lot of multi-tablers realize they are giving up on winrate, but on the flipside they are making more since they are seeing many more hands/hr. Can't confuse $/hr with BB/100. Your bankroll requirements should be based on your multi-tabling win rate if you are multi-tabling.. and so any one-tabler looking to multi-table should realize this and shouldn't base bankroll requirements on their one-table win rate.

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

Most 2+2 advice that I have read regarding multiple table bankrolls (and the advice I have given myself) is that theoretically you need the same bankroll as you would playing 1 table, but in actuality you need a slightly bigger bankroll because your winrate is sure to be reduced, thus producing a higher standard deviation and the need for a larger bankroll.

You also need a larger bankroll if you are going to be playing a *lot* of tables at once. Let's say you are playing 12 tables of 2/4. A bankroll of $1200 (300BB) would allow you to buy-in for only $100 (25bb) at each table. This leaves you no money to rebuy at ANY of your tables should you go on a losing streak at one of the tables. I personally like to have at least 2 extra buy-ins ready to go per site (4 tables), and I leave another 2 buy-ins in Neteller.

I would advise Dariel86 to have a much larger bankroll than the typical 300bb if he is considering 4-tabling 2/4, especially if he is also new to the 2/4 limit. Of course, not even 300bb is required if he is willing to move down after some losses.

-Brian

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think what you're referring to is that respected posters have said that their win rates and variance do not change significantly when adding more tables, so their bankroll requirements do not change.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, no.
They all mentioned their winrate dropping.

[/ QUOTE ]

But do they "change significantly".. ? If they go from 3BB/100 to 1BB/100, their bankroll requirements should certainly change. If they go from 3BB/100 to 2.75BB/100, then probably not.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My only point was that before you jump in and blindly believe that you can add additional tables without more bankroll, you should be confident that your win rate and variance are not affected by adding more tables..

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much everyone I've seen has a lower winrate when multitabling. They mentioned it in posts explaining why you don't need a larger bankroll for playing more tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please show me posts where posters explain that a lower win rate does not mean a bigger bankroll is needed.

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You also need a larger bankroll if you are going to be playing a *lot* of tables at once. Let's say you are playing 12 tables of 2/4. A bankroll of $1200 (300BB) would allow you to buy-in for only $100 (25bb) at each table. This leaves you no money to rebuy at ANY of your tables should you go on a losing streak at one of the tables

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a given, but it was worth pointing out.

Re: Bankroll for multitables?
 

The last post is actually the best on this thread. Indeed your 300BB doesn't keep you from going bust. It gives you a decent chance of not going broke when you begin and in case you go broke it's probably when you begin playing (I think the chance for you to bust is 0.5%)because the more you play the more your bankroll increases and your chances to go broke get lower. When you multitable your winrate decrases so you increase your chances of going broke compared to a situation when you play a single table with a higher winrate.(Of course here the variable is not the time it's the quantity of the hands you play).