Turn Line
 

Blinds are very fishy. I've been with them for a while. Loose passive. The other is an unknown, just sat down. No reason to believe he's any good yet. Should I have bet the turn? Against fish, should I wait for a good river and push a bigger edge? Or should I push my turn edge?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO (poster) checks, Hero calls, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, CO folds, Hero calls, SB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (5 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

River: (5 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: 8 BB

Re: Turn Line
 

Yes I would bet the turn. And probably the river depending on the card/players. This looks like a board that 1/2 passives call with ace-high and bottom pair enough for it to be for value.

Re: Turn Line
 

But if I bet the turn, will they call the river bet with weak hands?

Re: Turn Line
 

Tough to say, but I think they will. It's pretty clear that nobody has a ten, and also I think a safe assumption that nobody has a seven either. But there are a few straight draws that you'll be able to pry some value out of with a bet here, so do so.

Re: Turn Line
 

Don't you agree I'm likely calling or checking the river here? There are many, many cards that can come to disappoint me.

Re: Turn Line
 

Depends on the card, like I said. Sure, something like the A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] you won't really be thrilled with betting, but that ten IMO is a card worth a value bet. But with your position you have the upper hand in this decision, as you see.

Re: Turn Line
 

[ QUOTE ]
But if I bet the turn, will they call the river bet with weak hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

Will it matter? You've already collected money from them on the turn. If they call a second time, it's icing on the cake.

Very Similar Hand
 

Again, I'm with the same fish. So I guess that's an argument for betting. They routinely limp bad hands, so the board is not overly relevant. How does that section apply to this hand or the previous hand if at all? They are referring to hands with very few redraw outs on the flop, i.e. pp's.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks.

Turn: (2.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks.

River: (2.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks.

Final Pot: 2.50 BB

Re: Turn Line
 

I'd bet the turn for sure. It's been checked around twice and I think you've got the best hand.

Re: Turn Line
 

Bet the turn. Bet the river when the T comes out.

On hand 2, bet the turn. Based on the people, I either fold to a raise (tight player) or call and check/call - check/fold the river based on the card.

Re: Turn Line
 

Use your positional advantage and bet the turn. I'd probably take a free showdown on the river if offered.

Re: Very Similar Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Again, I'm with the same fish. So I guess that's an argument for betting. They routinely limp bad hands, so the board is not overly relevant. How does that section apply to this hand or the previous hand if at all? They are referring to hands with very few redraw outs on the flop, i.e. pp's.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks.

Turn: (2.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks.

River: (2.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks.

Final Pot: 2.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Since they are so passive, bet the turn. If you get raised, it's an easy muck. If they call, you're probably getting value out of it more times than you're getting beat up by a quiet flush.

Re: Turn Line
 

Grunch

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

This is a toughie. On the one hand we want to protect our hand in a raised pot. On the other hand there's a high probability we'll be outdrawn and we may end up with a bigger edge on the river...

I'm going to say that BECAUSE we may get outdrawn in this raised pot, we should bet the turn. to try and protect our hand. lets see what you kids said.

Re: Very Similar Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9, 8.
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 4 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) A, 6, 8 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks.

Turn: (2.50 BB) 3 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks.

River: (2.50 BB) Q (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks.

Final Pot: 2.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Discussion

I think that a key difference between this hand and the 1st hand posted is that the first one is raised, and this one isn't. Whereas it's worth investing a bet in the first hand to protect our hand in a raised pot, you can forego your edge in micro limits in the second hand with all those draws out there. Thoughts?

Re: Turn Line
 

When everybody checks to you again and you make a pair, go ahead and bet.
There aren't alot of worse hands that will call a riverbet, so checking through would be my line.

Re: Turn Line
 

I'd bet the turn here. No reason to think anyone connected with that flop.
Whether or not to value bet the river would be a bit of a tougher decision for me if everyone called on the turn though, although I couldn't imagine the T improving anyone. I wouldn't think anyone would call with a worse hand than mine. But maybe they would, and I don't think anyone has a better hand. I'd probably just check behind, telling myself, "No one would call with a better hand."

*edit - I'm also betting the turn in hand 2. The flush draw doesn't worry me with no bets on the flop.

Re: Turn Line
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But if I bet the turn, will they call the river bet with weak hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

Will it matter? You've already collected money from them on the turn. If they call a second time, it's icing on the cake.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is an excellent point. I was just about to advocate checking the turn until I read this, so thanks, Aaron.

I think you're ahead on the turn, so even though there are many bad cards that come on the river, getting a Ax, KJ, etc to fold to your bet now is great. And if they call your bet that's not too bad either.