Tough river decision
 

Villain was 20/5 over a meaningless 50 hands. Nothing to note of. Did I play it too hard postflop? Easy river fold?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">Button ($114.70)</font>
SB ($94.50)
BB ($122.65)
UTG ($18.55)
UTG+1 ($123.85)
UTG+2 ($82.85)
MP1 ($138.25)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($102.25)</font>
MP3 ($100.35)
CO ($40.60)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $4</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls $4, SB (poster) calls $3.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($13) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $10</font>, Button calls $10, SB folds.

Turn: ($33) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $25</font>, Button calls $25.

River: ($83) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $75.70 (all-in)</font>, Hero [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Final Pot: $83

Re: Tough river decision
 

I woulda called. Probably good fold though. I dont think u pushed it too hard top 2 is a great hand.

Re: Tough river decision
 

seems like an easy blocking bet on the river. how often are you going to lose with top 2-pair hu? did he show you JQ?

Re: Tough river decision
 

You are too far from the button to be opening with ATo. Just a few too many people still in the pot that can pick up a hand, and not a lot of flops where you can feel good about playing a big pot.

On the river I want to call because something doesn't smell right. But there's a lot of doubt, especially since the river completed an OESD. If you lose here, that's probably the hand... this line just doesn't look like a set to me. You win if he's on a busted draw or if he's playing really dumb with just a pair of aces. It's hard to assess the chances of each hand playing like that without any feel for how the game is being played.

Re: Tough river decision
 

Played perfectly, although with no reads i'll probably look this guy up.

Re: Tough river decision
 

I like your play on the flop and turn with the possible flush and straight draws. I hate this spot with no very reliable reads. It's marginal but I think this is a fold.

Re: Tough river decision
 

When I am up against an unknown at small stakes assume they are a bad player rather than a good player. Not sure if thats the best way to think about it, but oh well.

Re: Tough river decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
When I am up against an unknown at small stakes assume they are a bad player rather than a good player. Not sure if thats the best way to think about it, but oh well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree (to an extent), but this doesn't necessarily help the decision whether to call. IMO, it's bad play to passively call nearly pot sized bets on the flop and turn with QJ, in the hope of getting paid off big if you hit. If Hero pays off, this bad play is rewarded.

Re: Tough river decision
 

Unlike some others I don't mind opening up with ATo here. It's been folded to you in late middle position and while I won't always raise ATo here I will do it often enough as I don't like just limping if no one has opened yet.

I like your entire line here and I hope you made the call at the end on the river. I think often enough you're going to see a worse two pair, missed flush draw, or even a hand like AK/AQ/AJ (would be a horrible bet by these aces but I've seen worse).

Yes he could show you QJ or a set(although I think a set would have raised already) but I think you take this down enough that this is actually an easy call instead of an easy fold. If you had led at the river and he raised you then I might fold, but often when I think they were on the flush draw I will check the river and let them bluff like this.

Re: Tough river decision
 

why no blocking bet on the river?

Re: Tough river decision
 

Against a relative unknown, I think I'm calling here.

Villain's push is really just a single PSB. Like the other posters, I think a set would have raised earlier. And while the river did complete a straight, there are just too many other possible hands out there that could play like this. This type of play could easily come from a villain w/ AK, AQ, A9 or T9 - especially if he really is TAG since you showed so much weakness with that river check. For that matter if villain's a good TAG, there's a fair chance this is a bluff.

Re: Tough river decision
 

I don't believe he hit the straight. I call.

Re: Tough river decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
Unlike some others I don't mind opening up with ATo here. It's been folded to you in late middle position and while I won't always raise ATo here I will do it often enough as I don't like just limping if no one has opened yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not a debate between raising or limping, it's a question of raising or folding. I used to routinely open ATo three spots from the button (this is UTG in six-max) against absolutely terrible competition, and after studying my results in Pokertracker I realized this was a leak. fimbulwinter once mentioned folding AJo in this spot, and he is (was?) one of the loosest successful 2+2ers. Even against terrible opponents you're not going to flop something you really love very often, and against better players you're going to end up in a lot of bad spots.

Re: Tough river decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Unlike some others I don't mind opening up with ATo here. It's been folded to you in late middle position and while I won't always raise ATo here I will do it often enough as I don't like just limping if no one has opened yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not a debate between raising or limping, it's a question of raising or folding. I used to routinely open ATo three spots from the button (this is UTG in six-max) against absolutely terrible competition, and after studying my results in Pokertracker I realized this was a leak. fimbulwinter once mentioned folding AJo in this spot, and he is (was?) one of the loosest successful 2+2ers. Even against terrible opponents you're not going to flop something you really love very often, and against better players you're going to end up in a lot of bad spots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm not limping ATo from this spot.

Re: Tough river decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
why no blocking bet on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

That let's the flush draw get away for free. I'd rather give a missed draw a chance to bluff at it.

Results
 

I brought the timer all the way down, and finally called. Villain shows QJo and MHING.

Re: Results
 

Post flop looks good to me including the call. I just don't feel comfortable laying down here with only 50 hands on the guy.

If I have noticed that the guy is very aggro though I will sometimes go for a c/r all-in on the turn. Against typical .5/1 players I just keep betting like you did.

I haven't played ring in a while online, but I lean more toward Soah's line of folding this pre-flop. Too likely to get 1 of the 3 behind you to call and then play this crap OOP. PlusiIn ring since there are 4 fold's to you the deck is going to be richer for those yet to act. In 6-max I often fold UTG as well, but there are tables where I raise it.