AA , am i beat?
 

Seat 1: Villain ($39.30) tight/agg/agg, havent seen him get out of line all session
Seat 6: Hero ($23.20)

8 handed

big blind of $0.25


Dealt to hero [A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]]


3 folds, hero raises to $0.85, 3 folds Villain calls $0.60 from BB



[8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]]


Villain has 15 seconds left to act Villain bets $0.25
hero raises to $2 Villain raises to $38.45, and is all in
hero ..

Possible holdings are KQ,QJ,JJ,TT,99,88(unlikely but possibly KK) I know he sees me as a LAG, but he did give my raises respect, this was the first time he played back at me all night.

Re: AA , am i beat?
 

yeah you're beat.


fold.

Re: AA , am i beat?
 

fold. next time dont raise the flop. its WA/WB so keep the pot small.

paul

Re: AA , am i beat?
 

Why not raise more preflop?

Re: AA , am i beat?
 

Don't listen to the first reply. A raise here is definitely called for. You lost $2 to find out where you stand. If you had called he could have milked you for much more.

Re: AA , am i beat?
 

Yes you probably are beat. Raising this flop is correct. The only thing calling would do is give a smaller PP a chance to boat up before you knew where you stood. To the poster who feels this is a WA/WB situation (which of course it is) and wants to call to keep the pot small: how much are you willing to call on the turn and river? Presumably less than the $2 it costs to find out where you stand on the flop. Good chance it will cost you more than $2 to attempt to call down here and you will never know where you stand.

Re: AA , am i beat?
 

raising to find out where you are at is stupid. you can raise for value or you can raise to protect your hand, or both. if you raise here villain folds most of the hands you are beating, and calls/pushes with a boat/Q and occasionally pushes you out with a hand you beat. the best way to maximise value from the hands you beat is to call the flop. worrying about villain hitting a 2 outer is stupid. what i do on the turn/river would be opponent/card/bet size dependant.

paul

Re: AA , am i beat?
 

[ QUOTE ]
raising to find out where you are at is stupid. you can raise for value or you can raise to protect your hand, or both. if you raise here villain folds most of the hands you are beating, and calls/pushes with a boat/Q and occasionally pushes you out with a hand you beat. the best way to maximise value from the hands you beat is to call the flop. worrying about villain hitting a 2 outer is stupid. what i do on the turn/river would be opponent/card/bet size dependant.

paul

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: AA , am i beat?
 

[ QUOTE ]
raising to find out where you are at is stupid. you can raise for value or you can raise to protect your hand, or both. if you raise here villain folds most of the hands you are beating, and calls/pushes with a boat/Q and occasionally pushes you out with a hand you beat. the best way to maximise value from the hands you beat is to call the flop. worrying about villain hitting a 2 outer is stupid. what i do on the turn/river would be opponent/card/bet size dependant.

paul

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. I presume you treat the minbet as if it were a check, so if he had checked you would check behind. How is this not a mistake? AA is a strong hand even against a paired board. You are currently just worried about a Queen (and yet not, because if he strongly represents the Queen, as he did, at these stakes you are likely folding fairly sharply). You are not just concerned about villain hitting a 2-outer to boat up his PP, you can also sit around while a JT, J9, 109 or some other crap make a straight, a backdoor flush comes home or any other random hand further weakens your AA. If you are calling with the intention of calling down all the way because you have somehow decided he doesn't have the Queen, fair enough, otherwise I don't see how you are making any more by waiting until the turn/river to make your decision on whether to fold or not.

Anyway IMO, this mini-debate is fairly moot. Either way I don't think we are willing to lose much with our AA's here whatever way we play them. Unless we hit our 2-outer this hand will be folded sooner or later if the TAG holding the Queen, or bluffing strongly, decides to start inflating the pot.

Re: AA , am i beat?
 

calling gives me no idea of where im at.

Re: AA , am i beat?
 

i made a pot sized raise.

Re: AA , am i beat?
 

[ QUOTE ]
calling gives me no idea of where im at.

[/ QUOTE ]

play chess then

Re: results
 

I did fold them, and really thought i made the correct decision at this time. I wasnt even going to post the hand, but the next day i search for the guy just out of curiosity and hes in the 100nl playing atleast 50% of the hands, and playing them terribly. maby it was just tilt, who knows.

Re: AA , am i beat?
 

Quote:
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calling gives me no idea of where im at.


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play chess then


????

Re: AA , am i beat?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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calling gives me no idea of where im at.


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play chess then


????

[/ QUOTE ]

poker is a game of incomplete information, you can't get information without giving information. You're much better off not knowing where you stand than telling your opponent where he stands

Re: AA , am i beat?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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calling gives me no idea of where im at.


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play chess then


????

[/ QUOTE ]

poker is a game of incomplete information, you can't get information without giving information. You're much better off not knowing where you stand than telling your opponent where he stands

[/ QUOTE ]

i totally disagree with this statement.

Re: AA , am i beat?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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calling gives me no idea of where im at.


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play chess then


????

[/ QUOTE ]

poker is a game of incomplete information, you can't get information without giving information. You're much better off not knowing where you stand than telling your opponent where he stands

[/ QUOTE ]

i totally disagree with this statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok. so the flop comes QQx, he bets, you raise. Now he folds, great, you got all the information you wanted, your hand is good. Of course if you hadn't raise you give him the opportunity to lose more with a second best hand.
If you are behind you don't need to lose more but you greatly improve your chances of seeing a showdown AND you win a lot more when you're ahead (giving freecards is not a problem)

Raising purely for information is bad.

Re: AA , am i beat?
 

[ QUOTE ]
ok. so the flop comes QQx, he bets, you raise. Now he folds, great, you got all the information you wanted, your hand is good. Of course if you hadn't raise you give him the opportunity to lose more with a second best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
What second best hand is putting any more money into this pot? Any hand that is calling bets on future streets is calling a flop raise.

Edit: removed some content because I forgot what the original hand was

Re: AA , am i beat?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ok. so the flop comes QQx, he bets, you raise. Now he folds, great, you got all the information you wanted, your hand is good. Of course if you hadn't raise you give him the opportunity to lose more with a second best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
What second best hand is putting any more money into this pot? Any hand that is calling bets on future streets is calling a flop raise.

Edit: removed some content because I forgot what the original hand was

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TT bets the flop, gets called. check check on turn. you value bet the river after being checked to, he looks you up about 90% of the time (or makes a blocking bet himself).

Re: AA , am i beat?
 

so then he keeps betting the turn and river and you just call both times and have no clue where you stand unless he makes a monster bet. great.

Re: AA , am i beat?
 

[ QUOTE ]
so then he keeps betting the turn and river and you just call both times and have no clue where you stand unless he makes a monster bet. great.

[/ QUOTE ]

why do you assume you call the turn and river? Play some poker

Re: AA , am i beat?
 

[ QUOTE ]
TT min-bets the flop, gets called. check check on turn. you value bet the river after being checked to, he looks you up about 50% of the time

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP, and you just won a massive $3 pot. Calling that minbet is effectively checking behind on that flop.

If TT min bets and you raise, TT is probably calling. Turn Check/check, river check/call, you just won an extra $4 bucks (double the pot).

Edit re. TT calling the flop raise: in my experience, a min bet means absolutely nothing more than a check. Villain checked the flop. If he raises TT (unlikely) then you fold, shucks, we just folded the best hand on a [censored] flop. move on, [censored] happens.

If AQ min bets and you raise, he is either 3betting (easy fold) or smooth calling and leading turn (easy fold). If a queen doesnt bet the turn, make a note on the stupid donkey and move on.

Re: AA , am i beat?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
TT min-bets the flop, gets called. check check on turn. you value bet the river after being checked to, he looks you up about 50% of the time

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP, and you just won a massive $3 pot. Calling that minbet is effectively checking behind on that flop.

If TT min bets and you raise, TT is probably calling. Turn Check/check, river check/call, you just won an extra $4 bucks (double the pot).

Edit re. TT calling the flop raise: in my experience, a min bet means absolutely nothing more than a check. Villain checked the flop. If he raises TT (unlikely) then you fold, shucks, we just folded the best hand on a [censored] flop. move on, [censored] happens.

If AQ min bets and you raise, he is either 3betting (easy fold) or smooth calling and leading turn (easy fold). If a queen doesnt bet the turn, make a note on the stupid donkey and move on.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you're folding TT 50% of the time on the river you'll lose a LOT of pots, that's not my experience at all. And it's also not very commum to see TT calling on that flop (and imagine it isn't TT, rather 66, do you still think he calls?).

Specifics apart (we could invent situations all day to prove our points) raising purely for information is BAD.

Re: AA , am i beat?
 

66 is check folding most any flop without a six in it.
I'll agree to disagree. We're splitting hairs over a tiny pot, we both can agree that we certainly won't be winning a lot of money with this flop.

Re: AA , am i beat?
 

[ QUOTE ]
We're splitting hairs over a tiny pot, we both can agree that we certainly won't be winning a lot of money with this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen brother.

Re: AA , am i beat?
 

Does a queen really push in this situation?