Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

Hello All,

Sorry about the format.

HIM was being really LAGGY earlier and hammered some flops and played big hands well and aggressive.

Was a bit of a calling station.

BB was sitting out, and I have protected his blinds about 8/10 times.

I made a 2 barrell bluff/semi-bluff, then hit the river.

How's my line?

Hand #10415937-91 at Tue830pmWS1-012 (No Limit tournament Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 20/Dec/05 21:54:28

slob711 is at seat 0 with 5575.
dirtymott is at seat 1 with 0 (sitting out).
ME with 5270.
SaucerHD is at seat 3 with 1630.
pops11 is at seat 5 with 1120.
JC1010 is at seat 6 with 5380.
zmansher is at seat 7 with 1525.
HIM at seat 8 with 10340.
JML2 is at seat 9 with 8360.
The button is at seat 1.

ME posts the small blind of 50.
SaucerHD posts the big blind of 100.

slob711: -- --
ME: Jh Ac
SaucerHD: -- --
pops11: -- --
JC1010: -- --
zmansher: -- --
HIM: -- --
JML2: -- --

Pre-flop:

pops11 folds. JC1010 folds. zmansher folds.
HIM calls. JML2 folds. slob711 folds.
ME calls. SaucerHD folds.

Flop (board: 6d 9h 4d):

ME bets 250. HIM calls.

Turn (board: 6d 9h 4d Tc):

ME bets 500. HIM calls.

River (board: 6d 9h 4d Tc Jc):

ME checks. HIM bets 1800. ME goes all-in for 4420.

I think I'm ahead......thoughts?

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

Me doesn't think me gets called by a worse hand enough for this to work. I mean, maybe me does. It's real thin- thats for sure. I think the flop bet is ok, but on the turn its borderline spewing. Firing out of position with basically no info-- i dont like.

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

I like a raise preflop here. I guess a flop/turn bluff is okay, but probably check/folding turn is best.

Why the hell did you check/push the river? Check/call or bet/call.

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

I like the flop bet, I HATE the turn bet. I'm checking to him. If he checks behind on the turn I'll check/call the river. If he bets huge on the river I may even lay it down pending reads.

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why the hell did you check/push the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought I was ahead and he may call with a worse hand given my read.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

Do you really have no read on his preflop open-limp? You told us a little about the guy, but knowing what you think he open-limps with would help a lot.

I think it is odd that you did not raise preflop. Perhaps you read his play as a trap and didn't want to get raised off your hand. However, if he's trapping you, you're often in bad shape when you actually hit the flop, so why not raise preflop to figure things out a little cheaper?

Postflop: Don't overdo it with the double-barrel overcard bluffs OOP, of course, but you have to fire a second barrel sometimes to keep your opponents honest. I believe you have a solid understanding of changing speeds, so I doubt you are overdoing it.

When you do hit the river with a non-flush card, I think you have to fire the third shot unless you *know* the opponent will *always* bet if you check. Even then you should probably fire the third barrel to prevent him from misclicking and checking behind. Seriously, the overcard/straight card is very likely to scare him so you can't let him get away without a value bet if you're confident that you're good (and why wouldn't you be?).

Since you posted this, he probably had K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], but that doesn't change anything for me. Your top pair has to be beating his flush draw or flopped top pair plenty often to justify betting the river.

Later,
Che

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your top pair has to be beating his flush draw or flopped top pair plenty often to justify betting the river.


[/ QUOTE ]

My problem here was that I don't see many hands that call the turn beating me on the river.

Very nice to see you posting again.

Stay away from limit hold em, that way lay madness.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

Why did you even get involved on the flop in this small pot, out of position, with nothing, fairly deep, against a LAG? What the hell do you care about this pot? It has roughly zero chance to win you a big pot and lots of chance to get you to spew off a bunch more chips or back your way into a really tough decision.

As played, on the river, it's hard to tell if you're best or not but even if you decide that you like your hand, I see very little value in a raise. What worse hand is going to pay off another 2500? KJ or QJ maybe, but that's about it. The rest of the time you're going to get the same value from bluffs and other worse hands while forking over 2500 extra chips the times that you're beat.

Regards,

Everett

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It has roughly zero chance to win you a big pot and lots of chance to get you to spew off a bunch more chips or back your way into a really tough decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true, but I didn't plan on firing a 3rd empty barrell.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's real thin- thats for sure. I think the flop bet is ok, but on the turn its borderline spewing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that its pretty thin.

You don't fire a 2nd shot against LAGs who call with pretty well any two on the flop when they have position?

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

On the river are you presenting a check-raise bluff then? I can see a lag calling that w a strong 9 but it's an edgy play imo.

I guess on the turn you don't put him on a str8 or 2 pair as he would likely raise fearing you're betting into a draw, no?

Okay, I think I like... maybe like very much.

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You don't fire a 2nd shot against LAGs who call with pretty well any two on the flop when they have position?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course I do. This specific circumstance however, I don't like. The fact that he's LAG would make me less inclined to bet here- I don't think he'll be pushed off a better hand often enough (AKA a pair). I like making informed bluff/semi bluffs better than uninformed ones. It just seems here that you are bluffing with no real information, and aren't really representing anything specific.

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like making informed bluff/semi bluffs better than uninformed ones. It just seems here that you are bluffing with no real information, and aren't really representing anything specific.

[/ QUOTE ]

True.

Good points.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Since you posted this, he probably had K Q

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, he doubled me up with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I liked my read, since he was aggro, but the play was very thin, so I thought I'd post it.

Got lucky.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

Post flop through turn, he's either calling with total monster or weak holdings. If he does not improve on the river, he has to fold. If he does improve he has to call.

IMO, very well done. A perfectly timed play against the perfect vill. You committed to the hand and followed through.

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

I believe, his failure to act (just call) on turn, is a tremendous indicator of strength.

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

Very read dependently, I respectfully disagree. I like to play this way against a lag vill with a flopped two pair. I get paid off to river and if vill improves at all I get allin.

Conversely, if I am sitting in villain's seat, I will call down your bets if I posses a strong hand, raise you hard on turn with nothing or vulnerable hand that I think is beating you.

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hello All,

Sorry about the format.

HIM was being really LAGGY earlier and hammered some flops and played big hands well and aggressive.

Was a bit of a calling station.

BB was sitting out, and I have protected his blinds about 8/10 times.

I made a 2 barrell bluff/semi-bluff, then hit the river.

How's my line?

Hand #10415937-91 at Tue830pmWS1-012 (No Limit tournament Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 20/Dec/05 21:54:28

slob711 is at seat 0 with 5575.
dirtymott is at seat 1 with 0 (sitting out).
ME with 5270.
SaucerHD is at seat 3 with 1630.
pops11 is at seat 5 with 1120.
JC1010 is at seat 6 with 5380.
zmansher is at seat 7 with 1525.
HIM at seat 8 with 10340.
JML2 is at seat 9 with 8360.
The button is at seat 1.

ME posts the small blind of 50.
SaucerHD posts the big blind of 100.

slob711: -- --
ME: Jh Ac
SaucerHD: -- --
pops11: -- --
JC1010: -- --
zmansher: -- --
HIM: -- --
JML2: -- --

Pre-flop:

pops11 folds. JC1010 folds. zmansher folds.
HIM calls. JML2 folds. slob711 folds.
ME calls. SaucerHD folds.

Flop (board: 6d 9h 4d):

ME bets 250. HIM calls.

Turn (board: 6d 9h 4d Tc):

ME bets 500. HIM calls.

River (board: 6d 9h 4d Tc Jc):

ME checks. HIM bets 1800. ME goes all-in for 4420.

I think I'm ahead......thoughts?

Regards,
Woodguy

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand why you didn't raise PF. You know you're pretty much going to be HU, why don't you rep a strong hand (which you have)? I think this would have also given your later bets more credibility.

I haven't looked at any replies yet, but this smells to me like HIM slow played the crap out of a set. Why would he call you down and then bet like that?

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

The river was the Jc so he didn't have KcJc, sir. Are you fibbing?

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The river was the Jc so he didn't have KcJc, sir. Are you fibbing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good catch. He had spades.

Hand #10415937-91 so you can look it up, I'm not lying.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

Position. Position. Position. I don't see how bluffing at an aggressive LAG out of position is the most profitable situation to be in.

Pre-flop. Obviously you're hand is ahead of his range. If I had position I'd raise even if I thought he'd call me. It's not just to win the pot pre-flop but to make it easier to play post flop. In the blind, out of position, I don't necessarily mind just completing as I don't want to play a big pot against this type of player out of position.

I really don't know what to say about your flop and turn bets. You're making a move on him. If you think you can outplay him that way then great. But against that type of player it's tought. If he's just a calling station (post flop) then I think it's more profitable then if he's a LAG who will very likely raise your bet. You might have the best hand here. In fact, if he's very laggy you're certainly ahead of his range with Ace high. But remember, monsters in the blinds are rarely played by leading out (which is why I love to lead out with monsters). But from his perspective, if he's good, he should know that by you leading out he can win the pot with a raise most of the time.

On the river, I don't see you getting called by a worse hand often enough to make the push profitable. I do like the check-call if he's aggressive. If he's a true calling station then I'd bet again on the river.

I don't know. I understand how to make moves in poker. But more often than not I'm up against someone who doesn't understand that they *should* fold when I'm making a move. ABC poker online is usually a more profitable standard. If I'm up against a good, thinking player then I can become creative. And if I have position I can certainly steal pots. But out of position against a possible calling station and I'd try and play this type of hand cheaply.

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

This looks exactly like a hand I would have played. That's a problem for ya, wood [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Someone wrote very nicely - why this pot? I started to think about that point alot recently. I pick nearly random spots to make a stand, random pots that I decide I "must" win, for no real reason whatsoever, when I review it.

You get called there by J9s/KQ or even a real monster a hell of alot more than KJ/A9, at least that's the case for me. I can't see any information out there that gives me an idea that I'm ahead or got any real FE there. But since you thought you were ahead, I can't say anything about that push.

I don't like the line you took, since it reminds me of too much hand I busted on. You probably already know it, but to remind myself, you need to look for situations to pull a play. OOP, against a LAG, in an unraised pot, doesn't really sound like a good one.

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why you didn't raise PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he is the small blind. (Position)

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why you didn't raise PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he is the small blind. (Position)

[/ QUOTE ]
And I do understand this. But what's odd about this line is that he's playing conservatively out of position pre-flop and aggressively post-flop.

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

[ QUOTE ]
And I do understand this. But what's odd about this line is that he's playing conservatively out of position pre-flop and aggressively post-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was aggressive when ahead, and passive when drawing and I expected to get raised if I was behind, and take down this pot a lot on the turn.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

You didn't say raise, I was reffering to Dave's question.

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why you didn't raise PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he is the small blind. (Position)

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't make sense to me? Being the SB doesn't preclude him from raising? I don't understand why you wouldn't raise AJ when you know it's going to be HU. You probably have the best hand, or at worst a coinflip, why not reprsent it preflop? Furthermore, villian would have been more likely to believe hero's flop bet and maybe have folded.

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

[ QUOTE ]


This doesn't make sense to me? Being the SB doesn't preclude him from raising? I don't understand why you wouldn't raise AJ when you know it's going to be HU. You probably have the best hand, or at worst a coinflip, why not reprsent it preflop? Furthermore, villian would have been more likely to believe hero's flop bet and maybe have folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think not raising PF was only one of many mistakes I made on this hand.

I should have taken control PF so my flop bets had more bite, but I don't always raise here either with AJo.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Ooops I missed. Line check?
 

i usually give up the turn against a lag and, having got to the river, i usually check/call (with the occassional bet/call) that particular river.

i def. dont mind the complete preflop. in fact i dont think you made any bad decisions in this hand -- the thing i like least is the river c/r. i think preflop can go either way, and you should be mixing it up (and likely are). i think the turn can go either way, and you should be mixing it up (and likely are). but i think c/r'ing this river is a loser, even against a LAG. he doesnt call enough with hands you beat, and he doesnt bet enough with hands you beat. or something like that.