Learning to think on the fly -- a test
 

I normally post on the high stakes board, but I read this board occasionally, and I had a hand that I thought would be useful for others to evaluate.

Beginning players tend to think too much about "default" lines, often at the expense of hand reading. This can lead to VERY suboptimal play. Give me your thoughts on how you would handle the following situation.

Game is 10-20 NL, 4 handed. Villain in the BB has $2600. You have him covered.

Preflop

Folded to you in the SB. You make it $75 to go in the SB with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Villain calls.

Flop

K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

How would you play the flop against the following players? What would you do if reraised? What is your plan if the turn is a brick? Assume in all cases that you have the image of an aggressive (but not crazy) player.

Scenario 1

Villain is generally tight preflop. He tends to reach a "decision point" early in hands and does not fold a made hand very often on the turn or the river unless the board is very scary. He is generally sensitive to pot odds, etc. He is capable of bluffing and playing aggressively if he senses weakness. He is a winning player.

Scenario 2

Villain is a weak, but not wild, player. He calls and folds too much on all streets, and does not raise frequently enough. He is not tricky.

Scenario 3

Villain is a big LAG. He has more guts than judgment. He plays too many hands. He bluffs too often and in bad spots, but he is good at picking off bluffs by opponents. He is capable of folding if he feels he is beat, but he is also capable of betting/raising all-in with the nuts, air, or something in between. He can be tricky at times and is difficult to put on a hand.

I will post the turn card later on and give everyone a chance to reevaluate.

Re: Learning to think on the fly -- a test
 

I'm leading 2/3 of the pot in each of these situations because I'd do that heads up with ATC after a preflop raise so there's no reason for my to lay off when I actually hit.

Re: Learning to think on the fly -- a test
 

And if you are raised?

Re: Learning to think on the fly -- a test
 

Scenario one is one I flop bet for about $200. He isn't in with air but is going to be behind alot of the time here.

Scenario two is a default line, pot the flop, maybe even underbet the flop by a bit, just get him in this.

Scenario three is an overbet like scenario one, I know they are polar opposites but the line is good for both.

Cambraceres

Re: Learning to think on the fly -- a test
 

What if you are raised?

Re: Learning to think on the fly -- a test
 

[ QUOTE ]
Game is 10-20 NL, 4 handed. Villain in the BB has $2600. You have him covered.

Preflop

Folded to you in the SB. You make it $75 to go in the SB with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Villain calls.

Flop

K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Scenario 1

Villain is generally tight preflop. He tends to reach a "decision point" early in hands and does not fold a made hand very often on the turn or the river unless the board is very scary. He is generally sensitive to pot odds, etc. He is capable of bluffing and playing aggressively if he senses weakness. He is a winning player.


[/ QUOTE ]

If raised by Scenario 1 player after I have bet 2/3 of the pot on the flop, I am calling. Preflop: the pot was $150. After my bet (~$100), Villain's raise (~$400?), and my call, the pot should be at $950.

With $950 in the pot, I am check-pushing on the turn.

Re: Learning to think on the fly -- a test
 

[ QUOTE ]
Scenario 2

Villain is a weak, but not wild, player. He calls and folds too much on all streets, and does not raise frequently enough. He is not tricky.



[/ QUOTE ]

Given your read on Scenario 2 villain, his flop raise makes me nervous. He is not tricky and doesn't raise enough, as you said. To me, this means his raises give away too much info. Hero raised preflop and bet the flop. A raise at this point from villain seems like twopair or better, although heads up it could be top pair. I call the flop and lead the turn. If raised, I'm gone. If called on the turn, I'm probably check/calling on the river depending on villain's bet size.

Re: Learning to think on the fly -- a test
 

[ QUOTE ]

With $950 in the pot, I am check-pushing on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are first to act. Are you open pushing or CR all-in in Scenario 1.

Re: Learning to think on the fly -- a test
 

[ QUOTE ]

Scenario 3

Villain is a big LAG. He has more guts than judgment. He plays too many hands. He bluffs too often and in bad spots, but he is good at picking off bluffs by opponents. He is capable of folding if he feels he is beat, but he is also capable of betting/raising all-in with the nuts, air, or something in between. He can be tricky at times and is difficult to put on a hand.



[/ QUOTE ]

If Hero's 2/3 flop lead is raised by Scenarion 3 Villain, I am 3 betting. Villain is LAG and tricky, so I can't really tell what his hand is, but I'm way ahead of his range. That said, there are 15 cards that scare me on the turn, and I'm gonna have a hard time folding if any of them hit.

Because of this, I feel that just calling Villain's raise is giving up much in the way of implied odds. My plan is to cut down on the implied odds that I'm giving by getting more of my stack in while I am ahead of his range.

Re: Learning to think on the fly -- a test
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

With $950 in the pot, I am check-pushing on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are first to act. Are you open pushing or CR all-in in Scenario 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, should have been more clear. My plan is to CR all-in in Scenario 1.

Re: Learning to think on the fly -- a test
 

I think that a raise from each of these opponents will be likely to mean different things.

For opponent one, if we know that he is an aggressive thinking player than a raise does not necessarily mean we are beat. I think that if a tight player raises in a situation like this then he very well might be trying to do some sort of free card raise with a flush or straight draw. Also, if we always auto bet the flop after raising pre flop then he might just be trying to put a move on us. I think that many players with a hand like KK or 1010 would have re-raised us PF so I'm not all that worried about a set (wrong perhaps?) Against a player like this, I think a re-raise all in would be good to prevent him from getting a free turn. Like I said before, I think a raise by a thinking player in a situation like this is more likely to indicate some sort of draw rather than something like a set.

Against the second player, a raise would scare me much more. Since he very rarely raises, a raise in this spot could very well indicate a set. On the other hand, he could easily have something like KQ or KJ and be making a "value bet" thinking we are on a blind steal. I think against him, I call and re-evaluate on the turn. If the turn bricks I say we make a reasonably sized "donk bet" (say 1/2 the pot) into the guy and see how he reacts. If he calls then I think my hand is best, but if he pushes I'd have to seriously consider folding.

Against player number three, I think that he'll try to bluff his money off to me more often than not. I'll call the flop raise, call the turn bet and the inevitable river push.

Thanks for posting this hand Rococo, I think that using default "lines" is a serious flaw in my game. Interested to hear your critiques of these plays.

Re: Learning to think on the fly -- a test
 

paging Rococo, paging Rococo.

Are we gonna discuss this, because I'm interested.

Turn action
 

[ QUOTE ]
I normally post on the high stakes board, but I read this board occasionally, and I had a hand that I thought would be useful for others to evaluate.

Beginning players tend to think too much about "default" lines, often at the expense of hand reading. This can lead to VERY suboptimal play. Give me your thoughts on how you would handle the following situation.

Game is 10-20 NL, 4 handed. Villain in the BB has $2600. You have him covered.

Preflop

Folded to you in the SB. You make it $75 to go in the SB with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Villain calls.

Flop

K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

How would you play the flop against the following players? What would you do if reraised? What is your plan if the turn is a brick? Assume in all cases that you have the image of an aggressive (but not crazy) player.

Scenario 1

Villain is generally tight preflop. He tends to reach a "decision point" early in hands and does not fold a made hand very often on the turn or the river unless the board is very scary. He is generally sensitive to pot odds, etc. He is capable of bluffing and playing aggressively if he senses weakness. He is a winning player.

Scenario 2

Villain is a weak, but not wild, player. He calls and folds too much on all streets, and does not raise frequently enough. He is not tricky.

Scenario 3

Villain is a big LAG. He has more guts than judgment. He plays too many hands. He bluffs too often and in bad spots, but he is good at picking off bluffs by opponents. He is capable of folding if he feels he is beat, but he is also capable of betting/raising all-in with the nuts, air, or something in between. He can be tricky at times and is difficult to put on a hand.

I will post the turn card later on and give everyone a chance to reevaluate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assume you bet the pot on the flop and Villain calls.

Pot size is now $480. You each have $2360 behind. Turn card is 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Now what? One thing to consider is whether this card is a brick.

Re: Turn action
 

are we gonna talk about the raise scenarios? I'd like to hear your opinions.

Re: Turn action
 

Sure. I wanted to give others a chance to weigh in. I'll post my thoughts eventually, maybe tomorrow.

Re: Turn action
 

I'm looking forward to it.

Re: Turn action
 

bump.

Re: Learning to think on the fly -- a test
 

I've been meaning to contribute to this thread becasue I think it could become one of the best thrreads we've had recently. I just haven't had time to do it justice.

Re: Turn action
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Game is 10-20 NL, 4 handed. Villain in the BB has $2600. You have him covered.

Preflop

Folded to you in the SB. You make it $75 to go in the SB with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Villain calls.

Flop

K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

How would you play the flop against the following players? What would you do if reraised? What is your plan if the turn is a brick? Assume in all cases that you have the image of an aggressive (but not crazy) player.

Scenario 1

Villain is generally tight preflop. He tends to reach a "decision point" early in hands and does not fold a made hand very often on the turn or the river unless the board is very scary. He is generally sensitive to pot odds, etc. He is capable of bluffing and playing aggressively if he senses weakness. He is a winning player.



[/ QUOTE ]

Assume you bet the pot on the flop and Villain calls.

Pot size is now $480. You each have $2360 behind. Turn card is 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Now what? One thing to consider is whether this card is a brick.

[/ QUOTE ]

The call of our flop bet by the Scenario 1 Villain doesn't worry me very much. He's hit something on the flop and is looking to take another card off.

His hand range does NOT include trips as KK and TT are unlikely both from preflop action and our hole cards. 33 probably would have raised the flop (plus, given the turn card, 33 is unlikely).

So, after Villain's flop call, Villain's hand range includes: flush draws - A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]; straight draws - any QJ; straight flush draws - Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (although, Villain probably would have raised with this on the flop) and J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]; and combo pair + draws - A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T, KQ[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (again though, Villain probably would have raised the flop with this holding).

I don't think this type of player would call with just a pair and no redraw on the flop because I think he'd probably raise or fold (he likes to "reach a decision point early").

The 3 on the turn is NOT really a worrisome card because so few hands in Villain's range are helped by a 3. The only hand that he might play preflop that contains a 3 is A3s. Given the flop, A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] probably would have raised. The only other hand that worries us with the 3 on the turn is a slowplayed A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A because villain now has a higher two pair, but this would be a very slowplayed AA.

Therefore, Hero needs to lead the turn because he very probably still has the best hand and in order to charge the potential draws that villain has. Hero should lead out for $400.

If Hero is raised, I'll start getting nervous about A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A.

Re: Turn action
 

[ QUOTE ]
Assume you bet the pot on the flop and Villain calls.

Pot size is now $480. You each have $2360 behind. Turn card is 3 . Now what? One thing to consider is whether this card is a brick.

[/ QUOTE ]

obviously 10/20 is out of my league, but top 2 when you're four handed in a blind war is an absolute monster. The turn doesn't change that in my mind at all. The only things you're behind are a set (unlikely, that puts all 4 10s or Ks out there), quads (again unlikely), AA, or A3. #2 or #3 certainly could have A3, but i think they have weaker hands enough to take your chances here. In most cases i'm willing to play for my stack.

Scenario 1: good player thinks his top pair is good. I don't want to change his mind, bet 3/4 pot with a river plan of betting 1/2 pot and calling a push.

Scenario 2: weak player just called flop, which he's prone to do with both strong and marginal holdings. We are ahead the large majority of the time here, so bet out again... he'll most likely call with worse hands and call with better hands. Again 3/4 pot, and again 1/2 pot on the river but fold to a push.

scenario 3: i want to give this guy the opportunity to sense weakness and try to push me off the pot. 2/3 pot on the turn and a blocking bet on the river, calling a river push.

If raised on the turn by #2 im folding, by #3 i'm calling and check calling any river bet. if #1 raises the turn i'm not real sure what i'd do.... probably the same as #3.

Godfather: i really like your flop lines

Re: Turn action
 

[ QUOTE ]

Game is 10-20 NL, 4 handed. Villain in the BB has $2600. You have him covered.

Preflop

Folded to you in the SB. You make it $75 to go in the SB with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Villain calls.

Flop

K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Scenario 2

Villain is a weak, but not wild, player. He calls and folds too much on all streets, and does not raise frequently enough. He is not tricky.

Assume you bet the pot on the flop and Villain calls.

Pot size is now $480. You each have $2360 behind. Turn card is 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Now what? One thing to consider is whether this card is a brick.

[/ QUOTE ]

When the Villain in Scenario 2 calls my flop bet, I am not surprised. From our read, I expect him to call with a wide range of hands including any pairs and any draws.

The 3 on the turn is a scary card against this Villain because it could have helped quite a few of his potential holdings. But, we still must lead out because the majority of his hand range was NOT helped by the 3 and is either still drawing to a straight or flush; or just "improved" to 2 pair.

Therefore, against Scenario 2 Villain, Hero should lead the turn for $400.

If this Villain raises our turn bet, we should give him credit for holding trip 3s and act accordingly.

Re: Turn action
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Assume you bet the pot on the flop and Villain calls.

Pot size is now $480. You each have $2360 behind. Turn card is 3 . Now what? One thing to consider is whether this card is a brick.

[/ QUOTE ]

obviously 10/20 is out of my league, but top 2 when you're four handed in a blind war is an absolute monster. The turn doesn't change that in my mind at all. The only things you're behind are a set (unlikely, that puts all 4 10s or Ks out there), quads (again unlikely), AA, or A3. #2 or #3 certainly could have A3, but i think they have weaker hands enough to take your chances here. In most cases i'm willing to play for my stack.

Scenario 1: good player thinks his top pair is good. I don't want to change his mind, bet 3/4 pot with a river plan of betting 1/2 pot and calling a push.

Scenario 2: weak player just called flop, which he's prone to do with both strong and marginal holdings. We are ahead the large majority of the time here, so bet out again... he'll most likely call with worse hands and call with better hands. Again 3/4 pot, and again 1/2 pot on the river but fold to a push.

scenario 3: i want to give this guy the opportunity to sense weakness and try to push me off the pot. 2/3 pot on the turn and a blocking bet on the river, calling a river push.

If raised on the turn by #2 im folding, by #3 i'm calling and check calling any river bet. if #1 raises the turn i'm not real sure what i'd do.... probably the same as #3.

Godfather: i really like your flop lines

[/ QUOTE ]

Donkey,

Thanks. I love thought experiments like these because they force me to consider the reasoning behind every move I make. It lets me examine my own weaknesses and holes in my thinking.

Re: Turn action
 

[ QUOTE ]
Game is 10-20 NL, 4 handed. Villain in the BB has $2600. You have him covered.

Preflop

Folded to you in the SB. You make it $75 to go in the SB with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Villain calls.

Flop

K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Scenario 3

Villain is a big LAG. He has more guts than judgment. He plays too many hands. He bluffs too often and in bad spots, but he is good at picking off bluffs by opponents. He is capable of folding if he feels he is beat, but he is also capable of betting/raising all-in with the nuts, air, or something in between. He can be tricky at times and is difficult to put on a hand.

Assume you bet the pot on the flop and Villain calls.

Pot size is now $480. You each have $2360 behind. Turn card is 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Now what? One thing to consider is whether this card is a brick.

[/ QUOTE ]

Our turn action against Scenario 3 Villain is the most interesting to me. Here's why: it is possible that this Villain holds a 3 in his hand, giving him a near lock against us (we have 4 outs); but, it is also possible that this Villain will try to represent having a 3 in his hand a decent portion of the time.

Against a player like the Scenario 3 Villain, top two pair is a great hand that I am willing to play for my stack. I think the 3 on the turn makes us (due to Villain's propensity for bluffing) as often as it breaks us.

Although I'd really enjoy making a weak turn lead and hoping to get raised, I cannot advocate this line because Villain may have a real draw that we would be pricing in with a weak (1/3-1/2 pot) lead.

Therefore, against Scenario 3 Villain, I lead the turn for $400.

If raised on the turn by Scenario 3 Villain, I happily push for the rest of my chips because they're going in anyway and I'd rather have them in when I'm probably ahead.

Re: Learning to think on the fly -- a test
 

[ QUOTE ]

For opponent one, if we know that he is an aggressive thinking player than a raise does not necessarily mean we are beat. I think that if a tight player raises in a situation like this then he very well might be trying to do some sort of free card raise with a flush or straight draw. Also, if we always auto bet the flop after raising pre flop then he might just be trying to put a move on us. I think that many players with a hand like KK or 1010 would have re-raised us PF so I'm not all that worried about a set (wrong perhaps?) Against a player like this, I think a re-raise all in would be good to prevent him from getting a free turn. Like I said before, I think a raise by a thinking player in a situation like this is more likely to indicate some sort of draw rather than something like a set.


[/ QUOTE ]

Cant rerais indicate "I hit something like topp pair and you probably only bluff". Then all-in mean he will fold every hand you beat and only call with hands that beat you?

Re: Learning to think on the fly -- a test
 

[ QUOTE ]



Scenario 1

Villain is generally tight preflop. He tends to reach a "decision point" early in hands and does not fold a made hand very often on the turn or the river unless the board is very scary. He is generally sensitive to pot odds, etc. He is capable of bluffing and playing aggressively if he senses weakness. He is a winning player.

[/ QUOTE ]

No idea what kind of hand Villain has - I am seen as aggressive - so thinking player might put me on some kind of steal here - I am OOP - but have hit a great flop.
options
1) check - I have likely the best hand now - if I check it has to be to checkraise - so if Villain checks behind its a disaster - giving hm possibly a free card to a diamond flush or a straight.

ii) bet - this gets money in the pot and as I'm sure I'm ahead I need to bet. this also gives me info as to the strength of Villains hand if he calls..

iii) fold - er no.

I have to bet here so I am going for a PSB. If Villain has nothing I take the pot now - if he calls then I can start narrowing down his hand range. If he reraises I'd call and reevaluate the turn.


[ QUOTE ]



Scenario 2

Villain is a weak, but not wild, player. He calls and folds too much on all streets, and does not raise frequently enough. He is not tricky.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm favouring a half pot raise here - figuring that a PSB will usually fold this player and I want more of his money in the pot. Will call any reraise barring a push and reevaluate on the turn.


[ QUOTE ]



Scenario 3

Villain is a big LAG. He has more guts than judgment. He plays too many hands. He bluffs too often and in bad spots, but he is good at picking off bluffs by opponents. He is capable of folding if he feels he is beat, but he is also capable of betting/raising all-in with the nuts, air, or something in between. He can be tricky at times and is difficult to put on a hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

check/raise. Villain is almost certain to bet on this flop given his image and can hold any 2. I'd like to see a PSB from him after I check which I plan on raising to ~1/3 of his stack. push a friendly turn if called c/c scary cards

Re: Turn action
 

[ QUOTE ]


Assume you bet the pot on the flop and Villain calls.

Pot size is now $480. You each have $2360 behind. Turn card is 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Now what? One thing to consider is whether this card is a brick.

[/ QUOTE ]

its a brick.

if villain holds 33 we are toast - as 2 3's are on board now that is so unlikely we can dismiss it as a possibility. If it happens thats poker.

that leaves A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and I am guessing that would have raised the flop for #1 or #3 and #2 wouldn't have chased the flush for a PSB.

I lead here for ~1/3 pot to see what action develops, Checking is no good as it allows Villain again to check behind for a free card and he's still most likely drawing.

Villain 3 is the most likely to hold a 3 - tho even if he does I still have draws to a fh so will push any raise.

for 1& 2 I call any raise and see the river.

I want my opponents to try and draw out. hence the 1/3rd ishbet it is most likely if they do draw that they will miss. - if they miss I win a bigger pot. I also want to bet just enough so that if they call and chase the draw they aren't getting quite enough odds and are making a small mistake. lets say $180

I am ahead of Kx (not K3) AK - any 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I am behind K3 T3 AA 33

I can't see that AA or 33 would generate this action on this board from any of the 3 players - that leaves 2 hands I am behind.

then pray that the laws of probability hold up and the river is a brick - I'm scared of Aces and diamonds tho I am not sure I can a fold if one shows up...

Re: Learning to think on the fly -- a test
 

This thread seems to have come back to life, so I am going to hold off on posting my thoughts for a bit.

Re: Learning to think on the fly -- a test
 

[ QUOTE ]
This thread seems to have come back to life, so I am going to hold off on posting my thoughts for a bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol... One post in the last 16h. I´m not sure if it has "come back to life" or just die slowly! Well I guess I have to wait a bit longer on your comments then....

Re: Turn action
 

In scenario 1 I was planning on check/calling on the turn/river if no diamond comes and LEAD if a diamond comes.

In scenario 2 I think I continue to pound the pot.

In scenario 3 I check-raise this card, call an all in, lead for pot if its checked behind if the river blanks. Check-call if a diamond drops.

Re: Learning to think on the fly -- a test
 

[ QUOTE ]
This thread seems to have come back to life, so I am going to hold off on posting my thoughts for a bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say it's about time for you to post your thoughts. There have been quite a few views, but not a huge amount of replies. People are curious to know your opinion so we can discuss it.

Re: Learning to think on the fly -- a test
 

Hi guys,

Several initial thoughts. First, in a 4-handed game, you have flopped an absolute monster. You very likely are taking this hand to showdown, and you shouldn't be too concerned about pot control, even though you are out of position. The goal here should be to develop a plan that gets the money in the pot.

Second, this is not a good board to slowplay.

Third, I don't think that it is necessary, or even a good idea, to bet a standard amount on the flop against each opponent. Varying bets sizes here shouldn't leak too much information because your continuation bets when you miss should vary in size as well depending on opponents and board texture.

OK, on to the specific secenarios.

Scenario 1

This is the one player that I respect. I am inclined to bet somewhere around 3/4 pot to full pot. You should not assume that a call here means that this player does not have a draw because this player is sensitive to implied odds and he knows that he may stack you if he makes his draw on the turn and you have a big hand. Still, I want to charge him if he does have a good draw, so I want to make good-sized bet here. If an A, 9 or [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] hits on the turn, you are going to be in a tough spot. For that reason, I think that it is best, especially for beginning players, to push on the flop if Villain 1 reraises. If you call the raise, you probably aren't going to know what to do if a scare card hits on the turn, and you want to avoid situations where you could make a big mistake like folding on the turn if a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] hits and Villain has A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]x. Moreover, if Villain is reraising with a hand like K3, KQ or AK, there are a lot of turn cards that could kill your action so best to get it in now. If Villain 1 reraises all-in, this will be a very big draw (rather than a set) most of the time and thus will be an auto call for you.

If Villain flat calls, I lead the turn. Villain is capable of bluffing, but probably won't do it often enough to risk giving a free card on the turn.

Scenario 2

This one is easy. Forget anything fancy and bet 3/4 of the pot (or full pot if you are sure Villain will call). A normal reraise could be a set, but might be a hand like AK. A reraise is unlikely to be a draw from this player, so I can live with a flat call of a reraise, or pushing, depending on whether Villain is the type that likes to put his money in the pot in installments or all at once. A reraise all-in means something very different from this player. It will usually be a scared set, probably 3s. You might be able to find a fold here, but it would be tough.

No matter what Villain does on the flop, I lead most turns.

Scenario 3

This player likes to bet, but I don't want to show a tremendous amount of strength early in this hand, so a big CR is out of the question. Check-call is unnecessarily cautious against this player. I see two viable lines. Bet full pot and push if Villain makes a big reraise. This is fine. The second line is sexier. Bet 40% of the pot or so, and try to draw a big reraise. A smallish bet here is likely to be read by your opponent as weakness (whereas Villain 1 might see it as strength) or maybe a draw trying trying to see a cheap turn. You may get reraised by a lone K, or a draw. Either way, if I underbet the flop, I am not pushing to a reraise.

If Villain calls my small bet on the flop, he probably doesn't have much at all. I probably just lead the turn and call a push unless the turn card is an A. His range is too wide to do anything else.

If Villain reraises my small bet on the flop, a CR all-in on the turn can be a nice play no matter what the turn card is. If it is a rag, Villain may call with top pair thinking that you are on a draw (remember, he likes to pick off bluffs). CR all-in on the turn is OK even if a scare card hits because it will look to Villain like a great card to bluff. In the case of a scare card, I still like a CR all-in better than check-call. Even a LAG can't be expected to bluff the river here, or call a river bet with middle pair, etc.

Re: Learning to think on the fly -- a test
 

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Third, I don't think that it is necessary, or even a good idea, to bet a standard amount on the flop against each opponent. Varying bets sizes here shouldn't leak too much information because your continuation bets when you miss should vary in size as well depending on opponents and board texture.


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Nice analysis, except that in all three scenarios you are leading out for a 3/4 to pot size bet, which could be seen as a default line. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Learning to think on the fly -- a test
 

How so. I thought that I was clearly advocating an underbet (which might strike some as counterintuitive on a board with draws) in Scenario 3.

Re: Learning to think on the fly -- a test
 

S1: I don't like being in hands against this type of player... at our level lots of donks to pick on instead. So I would PSB + a little ... if raised I would probably fold and figure he hit a set. Note that I play typically as a 23/9/3.

S2: I like these types of players and would lead out with 2/3 psb as if I was on flush draw. If raised I probably min raise to build pot... if turn is a brick I probably 1/2 psb it.

S3: Against aggro I would check and call almost any bet. Probably lead the turn even if flush hit for 1/2 psb. The goal against these guys is usually to get my stack in the middle against them and worst case I can suck out like a champ!

Guin... finding I do well in all scenarios so far except for 3 where the suck outs are going the other way!

Re: Learning to think on the fly -- a test
 

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How so. I thought that I was clearly advocating an underbet (which might strike some as counterintuitive on a board with draws) in Scenario 3.

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Well, you said that the underbet was sexier, that's for sure. I didn't get the feeling from reading it that you necessarily thought that the underbet was the better line because of the chance that villain flat calls.

I'd categorize the underbet in Scenario 3 as "fancy play syndrome" at my level, but at yours it probably works better. I'd underbet in Scenario 3 about 25% of the time.

Re: Learning to think on the fly -- a test
 

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I'd categorize the underbet in Scenario 3 as "fancy play syndrome" at my level, but at yours it probably works better. I'd underbet in Scenario 3 about 25% of the time.

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I wouldn't think about underbetting a specific percentage of the time because it is so player dependent. I don't think that underbetting the flop is fancy play syndrome at any level so long as your read on the player is correct. The read is critical, of course, because underbetting is a BIG error against the wrong opponent. What you are really saying is that Scenario 2 is much more common at lower limits, which I agree with wholeheartedly. I underbet in Scenario 2 literally 0% of the time. It is suboptimal against Villain 2 in a vacuum, and I get no deception value because Villain 2 probably isn't paying attention anyway.

My point was to encourage people to think about creative lines based on specific player reads.

Re: Learning to think on the fly -- a test
 

Scenario 1: Bet 1/2 the pot. I reraise if reraised, and call it down from there, unless bets get huge, in which case I fold.. If not reraised, I bet 1/2 pot again on the turn.

Scenario 2: Bet 1/2 the pot. Call if raised. Call it down from there.

Scenario 3. I bet the pot on the flop. Unless he pushed, I'm going to the river with this guy.

Re: Turn action
 

I agree with this, I happily push a turn raise from villian3 after leading for 2/3+ PSB. Occassionally he'll have some strange 3 holding but his propensity towards bluff/raising a potential scare card, with holdings we're almost all ahead of, makes this a good situation for us.

Re: Turn action
 

Godfather I'm agreeing with you again. This is the villian who could most easily hold a 3 (along with many other holdings we beat so we must bet the turn) and is the least likely to raise with anything we beat. I respect his raise the most here.