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A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
Looseish 10/20 game on pokerroom network. I'm sitting with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the button.
UTG limps and an MP raises. two cold calls to me and I call. sb and bb call. 7 to the flop for 2 bets. Flop comes in 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Checked around to me and I check. Who bets this bottom pair and backdoor nut flush draw. I checked here and I think I should have bet. Maybe a bet buys a free card on the turn? Or do I take the free card now. I wasn't entirely sure what I was betting for in that spotso I just checked. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] Turn 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] UTG bets and 3 calls. Next two fold and it's up to me and I raise. Is this is a clear value raise? I thought it was which is why I raised but I'm not quite sure. I just wanted to know what other people would do on the flop and turn. Not that it matters but the river was a blank. It was checked around and UTG takes it down with Kc8c. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] |
Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
I think that you got every street wrong except the river. Fold pf. Bet the flop. Just call the turn. Also, you should include reads on the players involved (PT stats or at least something).
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
Preflop is close in my opinion.
Flop... no reason to bet. Too likely someone is going to CR Kx, so I hate a bet here. You really think that out of 6 people, a pair of 2's are the best hand? Give me a break. Turn is great-- you're 2:1 to make the best hand, and getting like 4:1 on your calls so raise away. River, well, sucks you didn't hit. |
Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
preflop is not close, it is a clear fold even in an unraised pot. he makes a flush 5.4% of the time IF he sees the river. with it being raised it is even worse because he can easily be dominated. it has a neg ev unless the pot is multiway (many players, not 2, 3, or even 4 opponents).
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
[ QUOTE ]
it is a clear fold even in an unraised pot. [/ QUOTE ] Now that's just absurd. |
Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] it is a clear fold even in an unraised pot. [/ QUOTE ] Now that's just absurd. [/ QUOTE ] Agreed. Even if the blinds don't call, its still 4 way. Hero might make a flush on.y 5.4% of the time, but that is far from being the only way he can win. Not to mention with all these cold callers, the players are obviously horrible. And Hero is on the button. Thinking this is a fold is horrible beyond horrible, and stating that its clear is just insane. lf |
Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
Preflop: If your opponents are as bad as they appear, this is one of the easiest places ever to cold call. Just from this hand this game seems extremely passive, meaning you can draw for as much or as little as you like.
Flop: Assuming the above is true, a flop bet accomplishes nothing, as no better hand will fold. Ever. Nobody with 6 outs will fold. Ever. Nobody with 3 outs will fold. Ever. Check the flop, its not close. Turn: I think this is the interesting street. While it appears you are getting the odds to raise for value, I wonder about something that has been discussed earlier. Other posters have indicated that you should take into account the likelyhood that others are calling with your outs in their hand (say a spade), and you shouldn't count all the "unseen" spades as an out. I'm not sure about this either way, as it goes against my very limited poker math knowledge. Hopefully somebody far smarter than me can shed light on the topic. River: Too bad you missed, but look on the bright side. You're clearly in a great game. lf |
Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
No reason to bet the flop. That turn card will have a very big effect on the value of your hand, and is more likely to make your hand nearly worthless than it is to help you. You are also very likely to get check-raised (or worse) and then you not only aren't getting a free river card, you are now overpaying to see the turn which you could have had for free.
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
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preflop is not close, it is a clear fold even in an unraised pot. he makes a flush 5.4% of the time IF he sees the river. with it being raised it is even worse because he can easily be dominated. it has a neg ev unless the pot is multiway (many players, not 2, 3, or even 4 opponents). [/ QUOTE ] How about seven players, Einstein? |
Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
a series of posts that are incorrect. quite amazing. playing Axs here in a raised pot is a big loser. if you are all playing those hands, you are giving away $. in addition to the 5.4% number, he is 28 to 1 to flop 2 pair or better. this is a clear fold and bad advice in most of these posts.
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
Respectfully, I think think you're dead wrong. You dont need 2 pair or better to win. In this hand, my ace was good. The pot was huge, I was in position and I had a hand that plays very well in multi way pots. I would assume paying 2 bets is fine here.
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
[ QUOTE ]
a series of posts that are incorrect. quite amazing. playing Axs here in a raised pot is a big loser. if you are all playing those hands, you are giving away $. in addition to the 5.4% number, he is 28 to 1 to flop 2 pair or better. this is a clear fold and bad advice in most of these posts. [/ QUOTE ] So is Ed Miller a moron as well if he plays A2s here? He basically states that would be one of his plays in his book. Look at the hand charts. I think it is u that is confused. By confused I mean wrong, by wrong I mean fundamentally. I literally LOLed reading one of your posts in this thread. That bad wrong. You should look into that. |
Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
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I think that you got every street wrong except the river. Fold pf. Bet the flop. Just call the turn. Also, you should include reads on the players involved (PT stats or at least something). [/ QUOTE ] This is also wrong. E A S Y flop check. The only thing I change up on this hand is calling the turn. |
Okay, Quick Poll
Everybody seems to agree on the flopcheck as do i, but where lies the borderline for checking vs. betting this flop?
Ill bet this flop if it gets upto 4 opponents, 5/6 if they're tight(and i got a pretty good handle on the cr'se possibility of the EP-players). Is that spewing? |
Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
mark, you say your ace was good (if you hit it). part of my point that you are often dominated by the preflop raiser. if he has aa, ak, aq, ajs, you are making a clear error. IF that preflop raiser has kk, qq, jj, with a few other opponents (since many players play aces with high cards), to play to the 1 in 6 times you flop an ace seems like a huge mistake. both because it is only 1 in 6, and more importantly, because when you hit the ace it will often loose costing you $.
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
i never said or implied that ed miller was a moron, so please act like you are having a constructive discussion, and do not put word in my mouth. it amazes me how often the replys here are venomous vs a friendly discussion about a subject we all love. we can disagree in peace.
ssh is not a beginner book, and like any book the principles in the book should be applied in certain situations. furthermore, i believe that ssh has caused many here who do not have a advanced understanding of the game, to play losing hands too aggressively. but it is a great book. back to the hand; calling 2 bets here with A2s is a losing play. i suggest you think about why i am saying it, instead of attacking me. it might save you $. |
Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
[ QUOTE ]
furthermore, i believe that ssh has caused many here who do not have a advanced understanding of the game, to play losing hands too aggressively. [/ QUOTE ] Nice to see a thinking player here who isn't in lock-step with the herd. I agree, amulet. And I'm grateful to Ed Miller for creating so many new players who like to get tricky with the second-best hand. |
Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
I'm not very handy with poker stove, but I would guess that if we put the limper on a reasonable range of hands, the MP raiser on TT+, AJo+, ATs+, KQs, KQo, and the cold callers on any pair, any suited ace, any broadway (?) and medium sized suited no-gappers. Put hero on his hand, of course. I'm guessing that that none of the hand ranges will have a commanding lead. Combine that with the fact that hero has position, and the game is passive, and I can't understand how you feel this is such a clear fold.
You keep quoting chances of "flopping" monster hands, but thats not all thats at stake here. He can flop draws, which he can draw at cheaply in a game so passive. He also has good implied odds should he make the best hand as clearly his opponents are horribly loose/passive. Do you have any other real reasons for folding here, because just spouting off doesn't account for all the times hero can draw for free, or take into account all the bets he'll make when he hits. lf |
Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
[ QUOTE ]
mark, you say your ace was good (if you hit it). part of my point that you are often dominated by the preflop raiser. if he has aa, ak, aq, ajs, you are making a clear error. IF that preflop raiser has kk, qq, jj, with a few other opponents (since many players play aces with high cards), to play to the 1 in 6 times you flop an ace seems like a huge mistake. both because it is only 1 in 6, and more importantly, because when you hit the ace it will often loose costing you $. [/ QUOTE ] This is true but sometimes the ace is good. Obviously I would have loved to hit a flush rather than an ace but in a situation like this, someone doesn't always have to have another ace. I think it's safe to assume that you can count the remaining aces as at least one out because sometimes it will win it but sometimes it wont. The ace is just another card you must at least aknowledge could help your hand. You can't always wait for the nuts to come in. In one of the examples from SSH (I don't have my copy on hand), it has you with A8s or A7s and cold calling on the button after only 3 callers in a raised pot. If that is correct with that many players, it seems that cold calling with A2s would be correct with 6 opponents. The pot in this one is really big, I think you gotta be crazy not to fold this one preflop. |
Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
[ QUOTE ]
ssh is not a beginner book, and like any book the principles in the book should be applied in certain situations. furthermore, i believe that ssh has caused many here who do not have a advanced understanding of the game, to play losing hands too aggressively. but it is a great book. back to the hand; calling 2 bets here with A2s is a losing play. i suggest you think about why i am saying it, instead of attacking me. it might save you $. [/ QUOTE ] 1.You are right that many do not have an advanced understanding of the game...Id say 75 percent of this forum fits this description (maybe 65 percent). However anyone who advocated playing this hand did not play this hand "too aggressivly." Well...anyone who knew what they are doing anyway...that comment doesnt make sense unless u are describing a broad range of players who misunderstand SSHE. It doesnt fit here...in general yes, but not this thread. Also...do u know what u are doing postflop? (not u in general)...but anyone who plays this hand here should know what they are doing to play this hand. You can play fit or fold but sometimes u hit a piece and if u have no idea how to proceed u could lose money over time. 2.Losing play...actually its really not...if u know what u are doing. Also...just because u cold call here w/ odds does not mean u are going to go insane postflop. A decent part of the time u will dump the hand, the other part u will play poker. Again, anyone who advocated playing this hand all the way through didnt play it aggressive...they played it well....check flop, call turn, river speaks for itself. You do what the situation calls for...sometimes its passive, sometimes it aggressive. Here is a question...do u play 98s, 87s, 75s here (on the button)? |
Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
i do not play them in a raised pot, for 1 bet of course.
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
nothing to do with "spouting off." calling with A2s in a raised pot is losing play, you are often dominated, and often need to hit somewhat big to win. over time it will cost him $. A2s is trash here.
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
I would fold this preflop. To all the folks arguing that this is an easy preflop call, let me ask you something. Would you call with A2o here? My guess is that all of you would fold. If so, how did an extra 6% turn an easy fold into an easy call?
The problem with this hand is not just that you're not going to make a flush that often and not just that your kicker is absolute crap so you can't make any money even if your magic A flops. The biggest problem is that you're being asked to put in 1 BB with this hand preflop. This seriously kills your implied odds. Had the pot not been raised, I would limp for 1 SB with this many limpers, but 1 BB is too much. |
Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
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nothing to do with "spouting off." calling with A2s in a raised pot is losing play, you are often dominated, and often need to hit somewhat big to win. over time it will cost him $. A2s is trash here. [/ QUOTE ] The chance that somebody has a bigger ace, while important, is far from enough to push this to a clear fold. How is it any better in this sort of game in an unraised pot, where people are just as likely to limp w/ A7s or A9o as they are to raise w/ AJ or AK. You keep saying its a looser, you can't justify why. If Hero has any clue on how to play post flop he can easily let go of this hand if he flops an ace and the action dictates that he's dominated, and he isn't just playing against the one guy that might have a better ace, he's getting an overlay from 5 other players. ITs not like this is heads up. lf |
Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
I'm slightly confused by your implied odds statement. True you're putting in 1bb as opposed to 1sb, but so is the rest of the field. So...
If you call 1sb preflop, flop a flush draw and call 1.5bb to get there your investing 2bb to see the river card. there would be 3.5 bb in the pot preflop. Combine this with 1.5bb from other players on the flop and 2bb on the turn (3 flop callers and 2 turn callers) there ends up being 7bb in the pot when you see the river card. I don't pretend to be an expert at all of this, but that looks to me like risking 2bb to see a river card in a 7bb pot, or 3.5 to 1. Now if you call 1bb preflop, that total investment increases by 1/2 of 1 bb, so a total of 2.5bb. The pot size, however, increases dramatically (3.5bb, assuming same post flop action). So now your risking 2.5bb to win at least 10.5BB which is 4.2:1. Both examples assume that you collect no bets on the river (since obviously you won't hit). The chance of flopping a draw in this situation remains the same whether preflop is raised or not, doesn't it? Like I said i'm not claiming that anything I stated above is correct or applicable, and if it isn't please correct me, but I don't see how the pot being bigger preflop hurts your implied odds. Wouldn't you consider raising with this hand if there were that many limpers to you? I would. Maybe thats a mistake, but its one that is recommended in HPFAP. Would you raise this hand out of your BB w/ 6 players in the pot? I would, again as recommended in HPFAP. I'm really not trying to be combative, but small suited aces have always been a problem for me, and i'm really trying to identify situations where playing them is a good move, and too me this looks like about as good of a spot as you can ask for, especially if the blinds are loose. lf |
Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm slightly confused by your implied odds statement. True you're putting in 1bb as opposed to 1sb, but so is the rest of the field. So... [/ QUOTE ] For the sake of simplicity, let's assume that all you care about is hitting a flush. (Obviously, you may also win by hitting an A or two pair or whatever, but I'm just trying to make this simple to illustrate what I'm saying.) If the flush is all you care about, you need approximately 15:1 to make your preflop call correct. So let's consider the two situations (raised vs unraised) separately. Raised --------------- Making the liberal assumption that SB, BB, and UTG will all call and no one will 3-bet, you're getting 6:1 immediate odds. Clearly, there is a deficiency between the odds you're getting right now (6:1) and the odds you should be getting (15:1) to make your call correct. This means that if you call, you're telling me that you'll be able to win another 9 BB from postflop action those times that you actually make the flush. I emphasize postflop because you cannot double-count the preflop action. Unraised --------------- If we once again assume that SB will call and neither he nor the BB will raise, you're getting the same 6:1, but now you only need to make another 9 SB postflop to make up for the deficiency between the immediate odds and the odds you should be getting. What I described above is what people refer to as "implied odds." Now tell me, which one do you think is easier to make up for postflop, a 9 BB deficiency or a 9 SB deficiency? And do you think you'll be able to make another 9 BB those times that you actually hit your flush? I could also have made the same point by just exaggerating the preflop scenario. That is, assume that it's capped by the time it gets to you and some magic oracle is telling you that the same 6 opponents will see the flop together with you. Would you call 4 SBs cold with your A2s? If so, you're saying that now you'll be able to make another 18 BB from postflop action if you hit your flush. And so on.... |
Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
lil, to imply that i did not state my reasons for folding preflop is absurd. you are either not reading my posts, or choosing to ignore what you read. it is ok to disagree, but at least be honest. the hostility you seem to show in most of your posts is unnecessary. if you actually missed my reasoning, then read the posts above.
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
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lil, to imply that i did not state my reasons for folding preflop is absurd. you are either not reading my posts, or choosing to ignore what you read. it is ok to disagree, but at least be honest. the hostility you seem to show in most of your posts is unnecessary. if you actually missed my reasoning, then read the posts above. [/ QUOTE ] No hostility intended, honest. The last thing I want is to be viewed as one of those spiteful never can be wrong posters. I'm here to learn, but I can't do that without asking questions... sorry if I came across as hostile. lf |
Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
np. thank you for the response.
we disagree, but are just sharing ideas. |
Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I'm slightly confused by your implied odds statement. True you're putting in 1bb as opposed to 1sb, but so is the rest of the field. So... [/ QUOTE ] For the sake of simplicity, let's assume that all you care about is hitting a flush. (Obviously, you may also win by hitting an A or two pair or whatever, but I'm just trying to make this simple to illustrate what I'm saying.) If the flush is all you care about, you need approximately 15:1 to make your preflop call correct. So let's consider the two situations (raised vs unraised) separately. Raised --------------- Making the liberal assumption that SB, BB, and UTG will all call and no one will 3-bet, you're getting 6:1 immediate odds. Clearly, there is a deficiency between the odds you're getting right now (6:1) and the odds you should be getting (15:1) to make your call correct. This means that if you call, you're telling me that you'll be able to win another 9 BB from postflop action those times that you actually make the flush. I emphasize postflop because you cannot double-count the preflop action. Unraised --------------- If we once again assume that SB will call and neither he nor the BB will raise, you're getting the same 6:1, but now you only need to make another 9 SB postflop to make up for the deficiency between the immediate odds and the odds you should be getting. What I described above is what people refer to as "implied odds." Now tell me, which one do you think is easier to make up for postflop, a 9 BB deficiency or a 9 SB deficiency? And do you think you'll be able to make another 9 BB those times that you actually hit your flush? I could also have made the same point by just exaggerating the preflop scenario. That is, assume that it's capped by the time it gets to you and some magic oracle is telling you that the same 6 opponents will see the flop together with you. Would you call 4 SBs cold with your A2s? If so, you're saying that now you'll be able to make another 18 BB from postflop action if you hit your flush. And so on.... [/ QUOTE ] You mean SBs. Just going from odds of flopping a flush (not how much u win if u hit an ace). 8:1. So w/ a raise multiply that to 16:2 now subtract...u need to make up 16sbs for your 2sb investment. If we dont consider the blinds coming along, we can for sure count on UTG calling...16-9.5 = 6.5SBs of implied odds u have to make up postflop if u flop a draw. Now if we consider BB coming we have to make up 5.5sbs. Depends on who blinds are but if sb and bb call w/ a ton of hands, best case u would have 12sbs in the pot (granted that is BEST CASE scenario). Most of the time u are in position where u have to make up 5.5sbs postflop. Which w/ a game this loose u can probably do. This is only counting the times u would only by hitting a flush and not the times u hit your ace and take it down. |
Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
Four people are in the pot ahead of him with a raise, and blinds will call almost regardless of their hands because "the pot is big" so this is an automatic call in this spot with this position.
People wonder why the games continue to stay good when people are folding hands they shouldn't be with holdings like this... Barron Vangor Toth BarronVangorToth.com |
Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not very handy with poker stove, but I would guess that if we put the limper on a reasonable range of hands, the MP raiser on TT+, AJo+, ATs+, KQs, KQo, and the cold callers on any pair, any suited ace, any broadway (?) and medium sized suited no-gappers. [/ QUOTE ] a) I think you are giving the no-reads-on-him-raiser too much credit b) The problem many people have when they run these simulations is that they don't realize position isn't taken into account. I realize you are (properly) saying you should call with this hand, but position is so important and the numbers won't show that. If everyone has precisely 1 big bet in front of them, that would be another situation where everyone is going "all in" pre-flop with this 2 small bets. That isn't the case and this is limit hold 'em. Proper post flop play via position will make this profitable. And it's not close. Barron Vangor Toth BarronVangorToth.com |
Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
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If the flush is all you care about, you need approximately 15:1 to make your preflop call correct. [/ QUOTE ] Way over-simplified. When you flop no draw you get away cheaply. It's like you have two stages of implied odds. First you only continue past the flop when you get something worth playing. Second you get extra bets when you make your hand that you don't have to pay when you miss. In addition to the flush, you are also very likely to win when the board contains A2, 22, AA, 345, and it's still somewhat possible to win or split with a lone A. You can also flop one type of draw and then back door your way into one of the other winning situations. Finally there are those rare situations where you win a huge pot - flush over flush, flush vs. set, etc. |
Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
Not to mention that you need not even hit any of the board in order to win the hand.
The power of position. Barron Vangor Toth BarronVangorToth.com |
Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] BVT
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
barron, i usually agree with you and i enjoy yout writing. however, this is a clear loser, calling a raise here (with trash). additionally, i did not think it was possible to overrate position, but you have. even with the button, A2s is just a bad call, you are to often dominated and won't win your share of pots to have a positive ev. but nothing wrong with disagreeing.
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
[ QUOTE ]
barron, i usually agree with you and i enjoy yout writing. however, this is a clear loser, calling a raise here (with trash). additionally, i did not think it was possible to overrate position, but you have. even with the button, A2s is just a bad call, you are to often dominated and won't win your share of pots to have a positive ev. but nothing wrong with disagreeing. [/ QUOTE ] You still have got to be kidding me. You keep making the same arguments. A2s is generally unplayable against a raise, but not in this case. I think you need to reread SSH. |
Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
[ QUOTE ]
I think you need to reread SSH. [/ QUOTE ] Normally I don't like "appeal to authority" type arguments. But it's almost impossible to calculate all the possibilities here with such a versatile hand and so many opponents without some kind of simulation. So if Amulet wants to ignore the combined experience of Ed, his co-authors, and most of the good players on this forum who agree this hand is playable, you might have better luck trying to convince a brick wall. |
Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
[ QUOTE ]
People wonder why the games continue to stay good when people are folding hands they shouldn't be with holdings like this... [/ QUOTE ] Trust me, this is not the reason why games continue to stay good. |
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