Busting your friends?
 

At the MGM this weekend and I just sat down with a friend of mine who is an extremely good player.

We don't cheat, we don't collude, but we do try to stay out of eachothers way. It's bad for the game if we play strong against eachother + there were more than enough donks @ the table to take money from.

Under the gun I post to enter the game (bad strategy but I wanted to make it look like I had no idea how to play). 2-5 blind $500 no limit game @ the MGM (great room BTW... check it out).

I pick up AA under the gun in my post (amazing) and advertise the fact that I'm trying to get my post back, raise to $30.

One caller, my buddy in the BB makes it $100.00 I know my friend will do this with exactly three hands AA, KK, or QQ. I call hoping to get the other caller to come in and play. Other caller folds... and I "waive off my buddy with my eyes"

He checks to me on the flop... I bet $150 and he thinks about it for a long time.

He fold his hand... tells me later he had KK and that I should have busted him for all his money.

What are your thoughts...

keep in mind we don't really have a standing agreement, but we do try to stay out of eachother's way with drawing/speculative hands.

Should I have just busted him in this situation?

Re: Busting your friends?
 

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It's bad for the game if we play strong against eachother

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Can't wait to see the reason for this load of crap.

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I call hoping to get the other caller to come in and play. Other caller folds... and I "waive off my buddy with my eyes"


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He fold his hand... tells me later he had KK and that I should have busted him for all his money.


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I have much more respect for your buddy than you.

Anyone ever tell you this isn't a 'team' game?

How about if a whole table was playing against you and your buddy? Would that be ok?

b

Re: Busting your friends?
 

is there something wrong with his money? does it not spend as easily as other money? I would bust family, friends, dead relatives, girlfriends whoever. If i'm playing poker i'm playing to win

Re: Busting your friends?
 

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We don't cheat, we don't collude

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By doing this you are colluding and cheating because you're influencing how the game will play out in the future.

1) Now you have a lot less chips in front of you than you would have had you busted him.
2) He would much more likely to go on tilt after his KK was cracked.
3) He appears to be a player who can make huge laydowns or make huge bluffs.

Re: Busting your friends?
 

You guys are friends, and both poker players. You've never taken each others' money before?

Re: Busting your friends?
 

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is there something wrong with his money? does it not spend as easily as other money? I would bust family, friends, dead relatives, girlfriends whoever. If i'm playing poker i'm playing to win

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The thing is... when we play in Vegas it is more of a social event. Drink bear, watch NE loose to San Diego, et. al.

If we play heads up we make a lot of move against eachother and it looks odd to the table... usually gives the other players a bad vibe and scares off the Donkeys.

He didn't fold his KK face up... he just cursed his bad luck with AK and we moved on.

P.S. I'm so sick of the "i'd bust my grandmother line"

If you really would bust your grandmother in a game of poker either A) she better be super wealthly and/or B) your parents did a great job raising you.

Re: Busting your friends?
 

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You guys are friends, and both poker players. You've never taken each others' money before?

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Good friends... we've taken thousands off eachother in mixed games and/or heads up matches...

We usually stay out of eachothers way when we are at a table of donks.

Re: Busting your friends?
 

people play for different reasons i guess. You play to watch football and get free drinks. I play to make money

Re: Busting your friends?
 

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If we play heads up we make a lot of move against eachother and it looks odd to the table... usually gives the other players a bad vibe and scares off the Donkeys

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I've rarely seen this to be the case in reality. But I guess it sounds good when you say it.

b

Re: Busting your friends?
 

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If we play heads up we make a lot of move against eachother and it looks odd to the table... usually gives the other players a bad vibe and scares off the Donkeys

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I've rarely seen this to be the case in reality. But I guess it sounds good when you say it.

b

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The problem becomes this... we know eachothers play so well... we would end up calling eachother down on the river with middle pair, A high, ect... and other players feel we are cheating and/or much better player than we actually are.

Re: Busting your friends?
 

When you're are in a game you have to be able to bust anyone. I don't care if your girlfriend is Pamela Anderson. If you want to play poker, you have to be able to bust anyone at the table without feeling bad for them.

-HoldemPokerPlyr

Re: Busting your friends?
 

I'd say no harm no foul. If you had taken his money maybe he'd be pissed at you the rest of the trip and that would suck. Also if you make it known you two know each other I don't see a big deal in that as well. GF/BF's sitting next to each other usually advertise this and it's not that big a deal. usually one is way worse than the other and that'll iron out any "teaming" up issues.

Re: Busting your friends?
 

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If we play heads up we make a lot of move against eachother and it looks odd to the table... usually gives the other players a bad vibe and scares off the Donkeys

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I've rarely seen this to be the case in reality. But I guess it sounds good when you say it.

b

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The problem becomes this... we know eachothers play so well... we would end up calling eachother down on the river with middle pair, A high, ect... and other players feel we are cheating and/or much better player than we actually are.

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Lame. Again, I've rarely ever seen this effect in a game to even consider it. But still, it sounds good.

First, you're giving others too much credit for actually watching your game and how you play.

2nd. The thing that would tip them off is if you got it HU (primarily postflop) and checked it down with less than stellar hands. Betting into eachother HU doesn't make them paranoid it shows that you will play hard against everyone.

3rd. You are cheating by signalling your buddy to fold. How do you think that will go over if someone catches your little 'eye wave'?

4th. No winning player that I know that plays worth a crap thinks they have enough of an edge in a game that they can fore-go bets to a bud during a hand. Unless, of course, there is a reason you can fore-go those bets...

And that reason isn't to keep a game loose.

b

Re: Busting your friends?
 

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GF/BF's sitting next to each other usually advertise this and it's not that big a deal. usually one is way worse than the other and that'll iron out any "teaming" up issues.


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Except in this case one is discreetly signalling the other.

b

Re: Busting your friends?
 

I think Bernie just likes to argue... but I agree with a lot of what you're saying.

Re: Busting your friends?
 

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I think Bernie just likes to argue... but I agree with a lot of what you're saying.

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Not arguing at all. I just think it's BS.

Not dressing it up all pretty to make it seem like it's something other than what it is.

b

Re: Busting your friends?
 

fair enough...

P.S. If there were other people jockeying for the pot... I take everyones money...

But heads up I let him slide for $500.00

Re: Busting your friends?
 

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..."waive off my buddy with my eyes"...


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I see you doing this, I'm following you in the parking lot and kicking your and your friend's nuts. Think about that, you *%&#@^x.

[img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: Busting your friends?
 

Only one question... would your buddy have done the same thing if the situation had been reversed?

Re: Busting your friends?
 

taking my friends money is infinitely more satisfying than taking donks money. regardless, its money. you do like money right?

Re: Busting your friends?
 

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..."waive off my buddy with my eyes"...


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I see you doing this, I'm following you in the parking lot and kicking your and your friend's nuts. Think about that, you *%&#@^x.

[img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

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you are just as retarded as him. checking it down with friends hu is no big deal (to the rest of the table) and is NOT colluding unless in a tournament.

this is actually very common among regulars and has no effect on their opponents ev.

op should be criticized for failing to max his earn but not for cheating.

Re: Busting your friends?
 

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you are just as retarded as him. checking it down with friends hu is no big deal (to the rest of the table) and is NOT colluding unless in a tournament.

this is actually very common among regulars and has no effect on their opponents ev.

op should be criticized for failing to max his earn but not for cheating.


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Sorry you feel that way.

Anywhere I've ever played, anyone I've ever played with, would/will tell you exactly what I told him. You nod your head, wink, or any other thing that tells me you're signalling your partner/friend/bud, that's collusion. Collusion is cheating. If my money is on the table and you cheat, you're gonna get your nuts kicked. Period.

And I really couldn't possibly care less if you think I'm retarded.

Re: Busting your friends?
 

You are colluding. You are a cheater. If you don't think this is true then you're simply in denial.

Re: Busting your friends?
 

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and I "waive off my buddy with my eyes"


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This is cheating. Bottom line. Why dont you and your friend just say "hey, whichever one of us wins money off the other, the winner buys dinner and lap dances tonight."
This allows you to play him without colluding, and also gives you guys an excuse to not feel bad taking each others money.

Re: Busting your friends?
 

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...winner buys dinner and lap dances ...


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Clearly a man with a plan!

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Re: Busting your friends?
 

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Other caller folds... and I "waive off my buddy with my eyes"

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You should be busted for collusion and banned from all card rooms in Nevada.

Re: Busting your friends?
 

please explain how when these 2 check it down hu it affects your money or ev.

would you feel differently if they verbally agreed to check it down?

it seems to me that you are looking for reasons to get in a fight without really understanding poker or implications of certain actions. however, you are looking like an internet badass with a huge epenus. keep it up.

ask this question in b&m, and it has been asked many times, and all the older, more experienced posters will agree that there is really no problem with friends checking it down so long as they are hu and not knocking opponents out to get hu and not in a tournament.

Re: Busting your friends?
 

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and I "waive off my buddy with my eyes"


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This is cheating. Bottom line. Why dont you and your friend just say "hey, whichever one of us wins money off the other, the winner buys dinner and lap dances tonight."
This allows you to play him without colluding, and also gives you guys an excuse to not feel bad taking each others money.

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how is this not cheating under your guidelines. you are advocating that these friends split profits afterward. seems like clear collusion to me.

Re: Busting your friends?
 

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please explain how when these 2 check it down hu it affects your money or ev.

would you feel differently if they verbally agreed to check it down?

it seems to me that you are looking for reasons to get in a fight without really understanding poker or implications of certain actions. however, you are looking like an internet badass with a huge epenus. keep it up.

ask this question in b&m, and it has been asked many times, and all the older, more experienced posters will agree that there is really no problem with friends checking it down so long as they are hu and not knocking opponents out to get hu and not in a tournament.

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You still don't get it?

I'll try it again. Slower. I'm not familiar with the techniques used in remedial reading classes, but I'm willing to give it a try. If your problem is comprehension, I don't know if I can help you there.

Friends, playing at the same table
knowing how each other is likely to play
will, often, in the interest of their friendship
"check it down."

If others at the table notice
and the above mentioned friends have appeared
to be playing in a straight forward manner,
not acting in collusion,
usually nothing is said.
While some at the table may not care for
the action of checking down, they keep quiet.

Notice carefully, if you're still with me,
I have not mentioned anything about signalling,
by head nod, hand or digit maneuvering, eye blinking,
yawning, belching, nut scratching or anything other body
movement/motion. The actions cited will/must be
recognized as collusion.
Collusion = cheating.
Cheating = nut kicking.

As to my penus. I have a theory about teeny-weenies who refer to my penis as a penus. But I think I've given you enough brain food for this session.

Oh, almost forgot - I do not consider myself a badass. I have, on occasion, and especially in my younger days, been known to act in a particularly nasty manner. I'm not proud of that and I try not to behave that way at this point in my life. But, sometimes nuts just gotta be kicked!

Re: Busting your friends?
 

So if the other player does call then what? Can I count on you not to waive your buddy off after the flop? I doubt it.

It's bad for the game anyway you cut it.

Re: Busting your friends?
 

I think some have missed the point of why this is bad so I will now elaborate:

You did indicate that there was no signalling or whatever before you and your buddy got heads up. Fine, that's noted. The problem is that if you and your buddy have this "understanding" about how you will not bust each other then you have an edge over the other players in the hand while there are still others to play. You and your buddy can even attempt to trap opponents between you (as indicated in your post). Only when the other player folded you called it off as there was no money to be made from others.

This "understanding" has a definite effect on the other players at the table as they don't get the same benefit as your buddy does. This is why this is colluding, cheating, etc. Does that help anyone who's still unclear on this?

Re: Busting your friends?
 

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You guys are friends, and both poker players. You've never taken each others' money before?

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Good friends... we've taken thousands off eachother in mixed games and/or heads up matches...

We usually stay out of eachothers way when we are at a table of donks.

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Then you honestly should not play poker at the same table.

Re: Busting your friends?
 

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This "understanding" has a definite effect on the other players at the table as they don't get the same benefit as your buddy does. This is why this is colluding, cheating, etc. Does that help anyone who's still unclear on this?

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keep in mind we don't really have a standing agreement, but we do try to stay out of eachother's way with drawing/speculative hands.


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they clearly werent colluding in this example. with different intent and planning they could have put forth a plan to but he says they didnt.

was it collusion when the nice old lady told me to fold bc she had quads? i did and she did. this is the same situation.

was it collusion when i had a read on a friend of mine, put him on a draw, raised his turn bet with a-high and knocked out a pair?

Re: Busting your friends?
 

Everyone is over-reacting a little.

WEre you colluding? Not int he traditional sense. You were not acting together ina way to take someone ELSE's money. Basically you were heads up in this particular hand and did not play it as you normally would it a random a opponent. This still makes alot of people nervous because you very well could start trying ot actively work together to trap someone in between you or pass information when others are in the pot. At big stakes like this (I considre $500 NL big stakes personally, as most $500 means alot ot most people) I would strongly advise not playing with friends.

Plus, if everyone knows you are friends they'll be quick to accuse you of colluding even if you were not.

Besides, it's +EV to play 9 donks instead of 8 donks + 1 skilled friend, correct?

Re: Busting your friends?
 

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...waived...

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...Drink bear, watch NE loose to San Diego

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You people are arguing with someone who cannot spell
"wave", "beer" and "lose"

This little boy has never been in a cardroom in his life.

-ZEN

Re: Busting your friends?
 

if im playing with friends, and we are playing for each others money i break him. if we both sat down at the table to play some donks, i'll atempt to check it down with him if he bets into me well i've got to break him. waving your friend off the hand is not cool, rather than spare my friend his cash im paying for dinner and drinks later or something along those lines, money is money so im calling when ive got someone beat

Re: Busting your friends?
 

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how is this not cheating under your guidelines. you are advocating that these friends split profits afterward. seems like clear collusion to me.

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How is this "splitting profits"? You cant use your profits to take your friend out afterwards? Collusion at the table is signaling, building up pots for a partner, or somehow working together at the table. In the example listed starting this thread, the poster signaled his friend. This would be collusion. Taking him out afterwards would not. Would it be collusion if you cleaned out your whole table and took them all to dinner afterwards? You never would, but this would not be cheating or colluding.

Re: Busting your friends?
 

If you would feel so bad about busting him then give back all the money you got from playing him after your session.

Re: Busting your friends?
 

I play with 10-15 guys every Wednesday and consider most of them to be pretty good friends of mine. I can honestly say that there is nothing that I would rather do than beat my good friends. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Busting your friends?
 

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When you're are in a game you have to be able to bust anyone. I don't care if your girlfriend is Pamela Anderson. If you want to play poker, you have to be able to bust anyone at the table without feeling bad for them.

-HoldemPokerPlyr

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all this talk about "busting" , it was only a matter of time before pamela anderson entered the conversation

I see a lot of negative comments about soft playing your friend. However,
I do think two strong players can ruin a good passive table by playing too strong against eachother. Weaker players can be scared off by too much aggression. Also, I believe you accelerate the learning curve of weak passives this way.