i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

bb is 53/3/.5 119 hands. sb is unknown.

i think i might start doing this move often. i do like this play but its worse with a 2/3 structure than a 1/2 structure. the problem with raising on the button with Ax is because you have reverse implied odds because when you flop an ace the action goes check/fold to you. by limping it you are telling them that you dont have an ace and your implied odds go up. if the bb is tight and you have a chance to take it down preflop then sure. but in this case i have no chance at all.

any thoughts?

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (5 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Hero bets

Re: i openlimp on the button with an ace
 

Against a very loose BB this is fine PF, IMO. He's decently passive thou so I don't think I'd take that line against him post flop.

Re: i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

[ QUOTE ]
the problem with raising on the button with Ax is because you have reverse implied odds because when you flop an ace the action goes check/fold to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are stealing sufficiently, this wont happen. My opponents dont know if I have A4, J8, Q5s, KQ or 22. If they constantly fold when an ace flops, you should be stealing even more. Huge profit there.

Re: i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

i hate being a jerk, but i want you to stop replying to my threads

Re: i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

This seems uncalled for.

On a different note, HPFAP talks about why limping from the button with ace rag is right against loose blinds.

Re: i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

[ QUOTE ]
i hate being a jerk

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly you don't.

Re: i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

[ QUOTE ]
i hate being a jerk, but i want you to stop replying to my threads

[/ QUOTE ]

You say the strangest things concerning poker theory though. I feel a great urge to respond.

In this case, if the blinds are loose, sure, then limping on the button is sometimes in order. No debate there at all.

However, considering your opponents folding after you raise when a scare-card-ace hits the flop as being a bad thing, thats just silly.

Re: i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

The raise is a tight line between spewing and genius. If these guys are weak and your image is good, I kinda like it.

Re: i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

[ QUOTE ]
i hate being a jerk, but i want you to stop replying to my threads

[/ QUOTE ]

??? i thought bright's analysis was right on the money.

Re: i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

[ QUOTE ]
If these guys are weak and your image is good, I think you need to raise here.


[/ QUOTE ]

fyp.

Re: i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you are stealing sufficiently, this wont happen. My opponents dont know if I have A4, J8, Q5s, KQ or 22. If they constantly fold when an ace flops, you should be stealing even more. Huge profit there.


[/ QUOTE ]

fine, its right that if they fold alot postflop with an ace hits that i should steal alot. THIS HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH WHEN I HAVE Ax. if i raise with Ax and an ace flops and they check fold thats clearly bad. NOT GOOD.

the reason why i said what i said is because you made a comment just like this in another thread of mine where your logic was entirely irrelevant. it just bothered me.

i then told you it didnt make sense and you defended your stance. maybe im irritated over nothing but i was irritated.

your post

Re: i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

I find it strange how you dont expect your opponents to quickly notice that you are raising with K8 on the button but not A8.


As for that other post, you wanted a reason to 3bet. I assumed you wanted a reason other than the plainly obvious one of getting bets in with the best hand, so I gave you another one. If you dont understand certain aspects of game theory, that's not my problem, it's yours.

Re: i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

k seriously dont reply to my threads anymore.

good luck in life.

Re: i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

I'll stop responding when you stop posting 4 hands a day, 2 of which contain poor reasoning.

Re: i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

Stop being an idiot Tstone. Your reasoning was wrong. Not only was it wrong it was ass backwards. If you can't take criticism this is the wrong forum for you.

Re: i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

[ QUOTE ]
This seems uncalled for.

On a different note, HPFAP talks about why limping from the button with ace rag is right against loose blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh really, i didnt know that. do you happen to know what chapter it was in? ive read the book i just dont remember that but would like to review it.

Re: i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

first of all, tstonembd is a good poster and player and if he does something there is good reason for it. oversimplifying things will do nothing to help your case bright.

second of all, tstone i think you are overreacting to bright's posts a little bit.

Re: i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you are stealing sufficiently, this wont happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

The main problem in this thread is that the above is al well and good, but that's not what's happening. TStone is reporting that when the flop comes A-high and he bets people fold. Therefore, telling him to steal more is nice, but that doesn't help him much for this hand.

Re: i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

Why arent you check/folding this flop you have nothing against a passive player.

Mixing a few limps into your preflop play is fine but following up with dumb postflop play like this isnt.

The good thing about limping on the button is being able to steal a small pot when everyone misses, but when someone bets, odds are you are behind and with a crappy hand like A4o you arent drawing to much so just fold it.

Cant win every pot.

Re: i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

I like raising preflop more here because I'd rather have it headsup with a loose passive then 3-way with A4o.

Postflop seems fine I guess. I'd just fold though. Did you consider checking behind on the turn and inducing?

Re: i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This seems uncalled for.

On a different note, HPFAP talks about why limping from the button with ace rag is right against loose blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh really, i didnt know that. do you happen to know what chapter it was in? ive read the book i just dont remember that but would like to review it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Page 197, "When the Blinds are Very Loose."

If you knew SB was a TAG, would you still consider openlimping Ax on the button?

Re: i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

[ QUOTE ]
do you happen to know what chapter it was in? ive read the book i just dont remember that but would like to review it.

[/ QUOTE ]

pp197-198

Re: i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i hate being a jerk, but i want you to stop replying to my threads

[/ QUOTE ]

??? i thought bright's analysis was right on the money.

[/ QUOTE ]YIKES!

Re: i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

Hey Tstone,

I don't mind the pf limp against an overly-loose BB who wont give up easily preflop. I think you have to let this flop go - he's quite passive and bet into a 3way field...while flop bets don't mean much I'd say we are behind a significant amount of the time due to his passivity.

Also, try to chill out a bit? Nothing in this thread got too out of hand, but it's a strategy forum and everyone's here to do their best to give advice.

Bright's analysis was good...sure, it didn't pertain to this exact hand but it was a correct inference given the description of BB and the pf situation in general. While it may not provide any help to you, others that read this thread may learn something from it.

Surf

Re: i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't mind the pf limp against an overly-loose BB who wont give up easily preflop. I think you have to let this flop go - he's quite passive and bet into a 3way field...while flop bets don't mean much I'd say we are behind a significant amount of the time due to his passivity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I've just started this. When folded to me on the buttton, I would always raise to steal. However, given the looseness of the BB in this case, I think the limp is better. As said, the BB will call any kind of raise. Limping hides your A and he will pay you off. However, in this situation I would probably let the flop go, given no hand/no draw and he is passive. If you are going to play it, I do like your line.

Re: i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

Here's my take on the whole thing.....

Something's wrong with the equation. A big blind that never folds preflop, but always folds postflop when an ace hits? Those are two absolutes that just don't go together for the same player. Anyone who's loose enough to defend their BB unconditionally will play past the flop in situations that a TAG wouldn't...bottom line.

Limping on the button with Ax is pure suicide and I don't care what any books say about it. If you're going to choose not to raise ONLY to compensate for the times you flop an ace and they fold, then I can think of a zillion other 3-outer situations that are suited for you.

If you play your button correctly and your range is big enough to include 75% non-ace hands, then why doesn't this make sense:

If the loose guy folds to an ace-flop 100% of the time, he's making a MISTAKE 75% of the times that you play your button correctly. Wouldn't you want to encourage that?

Just my thoughts.

Re: i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

from my experience the 50/5 guys call down with any pair despite an ace flopping. they also call down with any gutshot and sometimes even peel the flop with nothing.

Re: i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i hate being a jerk, but i want you to stop replying to my threads

[/ QUOTE ]

??? i thought bright's analysis was right on the money.

[/ QUOTE ]YIKES!

[/ QUOTE ]

were you going to support your skepticism or just imply you know what to do here by saying "yikes"? i just cannot let it go when someone makes a post this immature...that probably makes me immature too.

Re: i openlimp on the button with Axo
 

[ QUOTE ]
...by limping it you are telling them that you dont have an ace and your implied odds go up...

[/ QUOTE ]

The implied odds you gain are less than the money you make from the times you win the pot immediately, the times he folds incorrectly on a K-high flop, and the times you make a pair of Aces and he calls you down with a worse hand anyway.

The "tourist limp" gets more of it's value from its ability to give you a cheap look at the flop than from its deception, I think.

Also, I think the x matters here.

Also, fwiw, I thought Bright's comments in this thread and the other one weren't out of line. Your response was bizarre and innapropriate.

/mc