Spewing? Do you ever fire the third bullet here?
 

Bodog 200 NL Full ring
I have Qd Jd in SB
unraised pot, limper or two

Flop: Ad 7c 9d I believe
Guy in MP leads for pot (12 I believe)
I C/R to 35, he thinks and calls

Turn is a blank
I fire 60 into 80 pot
He thinks, and calls

River is an offsuit 10
100 left in my stack, 100 left in his, and pot is pretty big now.
Gotta give up here? Does anyone fire the third bullet? Whatever it is that he has, he doesn't seem to be wanting to let go of it. I think the results MAY somewhat surprise some of you. MAYBE. Doubt it though.

I think this is bigtime spewing with just the flush draw, and I should be zapped with a cattle prod. I can't just call on the flop, so I think flop raise is only way to go about it if I want to continue with the hand. Do you lead the turn if he just calls like that, after thinking? Power of position, sigh. Folding flop is likely the best by far, as chasing 9 outers OOP sucks.

Re: Spewing? Do you ever fire the third bullet here?
 

i think his most likely holding is Ax, probably AJ-AT ish that doesnt believe you

from experience, pushing this river = very -EV

Re: Spewing? Do you ever fire the third bullet here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
unraised pot, limper or two
.
.
.
Guy in MP leads for pot (12 I believe)

[/ QUOTE ]

How many limpers?

Re: Spewing? Do you ever fire the third bullet here?
 

4, not counting me in SB and BB I think. Villain was in MP. This is going from memory. I'm pretty sure villain bet pot, so that would have to have been the case.

Re: Spewing? Do you ever fire the third bullet here?
 

He can't let go of his ace. Bizarre number for a check raise though.

I don't see how he can fold the river push. Pushing=serious -EV.

200 NL isn't really a bluffing place anyway. You could have checked the turn even though to any good player it would have been obvious what you had then bet the river had you hit. It'll usually get paid off anyway.

There aren't too many people at 200 NL you could even get away with this so don't try.

I would absolutely bet that turn if he takes that long to call. Turn call means he's just decided that if you have him beat so be it.

Heard this story a number of times. You know he's weak--he knows he's weak yet he won't fold.

Re: Spewing? Do you ever fire the third bullet here?
 

I fold this flop.

Flop: Ad 7c 9d I believe
Guy in MP leads for pot (12 I believe)
I C/R to 35, he thinks and calls

Well it didn't work on the flop, shutdown.

Re: Spewing? Do you ever fire the third bullet here?
 

When you fire at the villain with the flop c/r you need some kind of read that gives you a reason to believe that you stand some chance of success. So what kind of read did you have?

Look at the other side. Has he ever seen you try this before?

Nothing wrong with taking a shot at someone that has the weak-tite disease. If called I'm probably thru with the hand.

Re: Spewing? Do you ever fire the third bullet here?
 

the reason we're making money right now is because people don't know how to fold river.

Just that your questioning if u should fire a 3rd bullet means its a bad idea.

Very rarely is it a good idea to fire 3rd or even 2nd bullet

Re: Spewing? Do you ever fire the third bullet here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
When you fire at the villain with the flop c/r you need some kind of read that gives you a reason to believe that you stand some chance of success. So what kind of read did you have?

Look at the other side. Has he ever seen you try this before?

Nothing wrong with taking a shot at someone that has the weak-tite disease. If called I'm probably thru with the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was to be my next response after confirming that there were four limpers, and not "one or two". Checkraise bluffs against five loose opponents is spewing.

Re: Spewing? Do you ever fire the third bullet here?
 

Yea, I really needed a cattle prodding after this.

Villain was stubborn with his AJo. What was his thought process? There must have been none. What did he think he beat? This spew got me action at the table and I got my money back fairly quickly, so I guess it wasn't all bad even though the play itself sucked. I ended the session up 3 buyins, but I could not get over the fact that I had no FE over AJ in that spot. If I had something like a set there, which I would likely play the same way, I feel I would never get that kind of action. Heeeeehaw [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Spewing? Do you ever fire the third bullet here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I fold this flop.

[b]Flop: Ad 7c 9d


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious???

Re: Spewing? Do you ever fire the third bullet here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fold this flop.

[b]Flop: Ad 7c 9d


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious???

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you?

Re: Spewing? Do you ever fire the third bullet here?
 

I think you should try to check-raise all-in on the river....

No seriously, he wont fold anymore. Betting full pot and then calling check-raise on the flop + you didnt show real strength on the turn means he will call you, no matter what.

I dont like your flop check-raise OOP either. You are called much too often and playing a blank turn is quite difficult.However I dont get the people advocating fold. You have some backdoor straightdraws too, maybe you even get freecard for river if you check turn after check-calling flop, these people are passive.

Re: Spewing? Do you ever fire the third bullet here?
 

I didn't show real strength betting 60 into 80 pot on turn? Whats strength to you here? We are sitting with 200, 60 is pretty intimidating to most in this game.

I don't like the flop raise here either, due to the other people, but just calling here OOP sucks too. I'm not exactly getting odds to call a pot bet, if someone behind me raises it sucks, and my implied odds are bad here as well. I guess I can hope for an overcall, or hope for him to actually pay off my fishing when the board brings the obvious third diamond? I like folding this flop. Pushing the river here was pretty retarded on my part, this I fully acknowledge. AJo though? Good lord.

Re: Spewing? Do you ever fire the third bullet here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Very rarely is it a good idea to fire 3rd or even 2nd bullet

[/ QUOTE ]

Second bullets are my speciality. Folk will often call a flop bet in hope of some improvement. They usually won't continue to finance a medioce hand faced with a near pot sized turn bet.
Just to mix up my play, following a preflop raise, I also use a turn bluff bet as a variation on the continuation bet. Check or call on the flop then bet on the turn, works a treat when they get tired of the regular flop continuation bet.

Re: Spewing? Do you ever fire the third bullet here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
We are sitting with 200, 60 is pretty intimidating to most in this game.


[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously not for those players, who call you with AJ here [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I dont know, full pot bet or push surely looks more like a set or top two pair for most players here. Not saying you should have used that play, but I understand that most bad players will not be impressed by your turn bet too much.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not exactly getting odds to call a pot bet, if someone behind me raises it sucks, and my implied odds are bad here as well. I guess I can hope for an overcall, or hope for him to actually pay off my fishing when the board brings the obvious third diamond? I like folding this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not too sure. If someone raises sure you can fold, but how often do check-raises really happen? It seems these players love slowplaying everything. I like the implied odds, and I think that you can get a freecard to the river even though you are OOP. I call with decent flushdraws very often at the flop, maybe a leak, dont know. Someone should do a detailed analysis about the math, I'm too lazy right now lol.

I think betting out OOP is alot better than check-raising in most situations. All in all in this one maybe its really Betting Out >>> Fold === Check-Call >>> Check-Raise

Re: Spewing? Do you ever fire the third bullet here?
 

No, I'm pretty sure a good 90%-95% of the players in this particular game would have folded to the 60 in that spot. I was unlucky enough to pick the wrong guy at the wrong time. I wouldn't normally make the C/R here into this many people, or the second barrel bluff. Pushing 160ish into the 80 pot looks like a set here to him?? Quite frankly, I'm not sure if anything looks like anything to him, as he obviously isn't a thinking player.

The math here is simple though. Getting 2:1 on money, and am 4.2:1 to improve seeing one card. I do have some backdoor draws, but this isn't going to help only seeing one card. If I pick up OESD draw, I will be able to call something like a pot sized bet on turn, but that doesn't erase the mistake I made on flop. To make up for the incorrect immediate odds, you need implied odds, and the implied odds are bad here because the draw is an obvious one that even non-thinking players will be scared of.

There are too many people here in this pot to lead out, as I am unlikely to fold an ace, if I get raised I will be playing a big pot OOP (which is what I mistakingly did here) chasing a 9 outer that I will likely only get to correctly see one card with, and if someone just calls, playing the blank OOP will be awkward as well.

All this being said, I think folding the flop is the best. Don't have odds to just call. Raising the 9 outer here sucks, as you are OOP and theres too many other people in the hand.

Re: Spewing? Do you ever fire the third bullet here?
 

Folding the flop against this player is obviously terrible since you will win a ton of his money if you hit.