Fast or slow - flopped boat
 

Recently I've seen a lot of posts dealing with slowplaying and how sometimes just playing fast and straight forward is the better move in a lot of circumstances. So here I am ready to receive my admonishment for this hand. I just sat down recently and didn't really have a read on anyone.

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (11 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, SB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

I was initially going to bet this but I could just visualize the rest of the table folding. The chances are slim that anyone else got a piece of this. Although I am well aware that at this limit people will call down with just about anything so perhaps I should have taken a chance. When it came back around I didn't checkraise because I didn't want to give off any sign of strength yet. I thought that would be too obvious that I at least had a K.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, Button calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

Ok, now it gets interesting. I think it was a mistake not to bet. If it gets checked all the way through then that accomplishes nothing. This time however when the button bet I was going to checkraise and apparently I wasn't the only one.

River: (15.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, Button calls, UTG+1 calls.

Pretty standard...

Final Pot: 27.50 BB

Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat
 

That's how I'd have played it. You aren't really open to redraws, so you gain very little from anyone folding that flop. The most frequent reason not to slowplay IMO is because it can be dangerous, but it really isn't here.

On the turn, the button probably figures to have the best hand as the turn card isn't scary and nobody raised him on the flop. So he's quite likely to bet and I think you can go for the CR here.

Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat
 

[ QUOTE ]
The chances are slim that anyone else got a piece of this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Underpairs, queens, straight draws, ace high, and someone who just doesn't believe you have anything will call here.

[ QUOTE ]
I think it was a mistake not to bet. If it gets checked all the way through then that accomplishes nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the main thing. After raising pf and with only one player left to act behind you, you need to bet the flop. Even after the button bets the flop, there's no guarantee he will bet the turn, and that would really suck for you.

Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat
 

I hate the flop check. There are still plenty of hands people will call with here and you can't be sure Button will bet, when he checks through you lose bets.

Once button bets I think not check/raising is a mistake as he may not bet the turn. The board's looking pretty scary and some players just like to bet if checked to as some sort of bluff. He's going to check the turn a reasonable amount of time and when he does you lose a lot of value. EDIT: Just noticed you already discuss this under the turn action. Check/calling the flop and the betting out on the turn would be bad because you win the same as just betting both streets but you risk having the flop checked through.

River is standard.

I think you're giving your opponents too much credit for their ability. They aren't going to be scared away or worried about you having a monster. They also probably aren't thinking about what your flop check could mean.

Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat
 

bet flop.

given the check, check-raise the flop.

Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat
 

The check-raise on the flop would have been great considering your position to the button bet, the whole table had already called you should have went ahead and raised. Bet/raise the rest of the way out.

Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat
 

Although I might have bet this flop, this is a perfect hand for slowplaying, I would think. You've got a monster hand, and there are some draws to 2nd best out there (straights, flushes, sets, and lower boats, and yes, sure, runner-runner quads) but very few to a better hand than yours.

But I think I disagree with the others about check-raising. You would definitely get another few small bets on the river, but a check-raise is a strong play (I think one of the very few things that the average micro player actually notices) and it has a good chance to slow down your opponents.

On the turn. I might have now bet out, but I definitely liked the 3 bet after UTG + 1 raises.

River seems like you did exactly what you needed to do! Hope you didn't get beaten by quad 9s!

Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat
 

When you have all cards you almost always have to slow play. It would be different if you had 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and got to play for free out of the small blind and flopped 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Then people with overcards and pocket pairs and flush draws may give you some action on the flop But when yuo hold all the good cards...not many chances of callers on this.

Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat
 

I also hate the flop check. With only one player behind you, you're risking (a significant risk) that this gets checked through. You raised pre-flop -- most players expect you to bet the flop in any case. You got lucky that button bet for you, but I wouldn't do this again.

Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat
 

Thanks for the advice. I was pretty sure I played that one poorly but just needed to hear it from others to make sure. Anyway, Button showed J9, UTG+1 had K4 and MHIG. Today this hand comes up and due partly to the advice here I was able to shut off the little slowplay switch in my head and just go forward...

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.05.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO (poster) calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, CO calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (17.40 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (10.70 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

River: (14.70 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 18.70 BB

Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat
 

Nice hand.

I think doing anything differently on any street would be bad.

Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat
 

The flop check sucks imo. There are plenty of ways that people could have gutshots and they will take a card off drawing stone dead. There is only one person to act behind you, so it will go though quite often.

The flop check then makes the turn a bitch to play. Will he bet for you again? Will he take a free card? It screams "monster" when you check/call the flop and then go crazy on the turn...

Brad

Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat
 

I actually don't think the flop check was so bad. Even at micro-limits I think everyone who doesn't have an ace/queen or a draw will fold. Then those who miss the turn will fold then. The only people you're sure to get action from are people who would be betting the flop if you check anyways.

OTOH, if you flop a boat like 774 from the big blind, then you should bet, because this is when everybody will call with their overcards and give you all the action you want.

So my opinion is that you played it good on all streets, though I might have bet the turn.

Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat
 

I'd go for the check raise on the flop and bet out the turn.

But the way you played it, you did end up getting more bets in the pot, since the button was pretty determined. Did you have an aggro read on him or something?

Please don't tell me he held 99 or KK?

Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat
 

On Pacific and Party .25/.5 &amp; .5/1, I have found being the first to bet into any paired board causes a lot of folds most of the time. I'm going to estimate I'll see 3 or more callers only 20% of the time and 1 or 2 callers 70% of the time. With the OP's hand, I think it's better to try to get more big bet calls.

Luckily, the button bet. People are more willing to call a button bet because the button is correctly inclined to bet with less of a hand than anyone else. I would definately not check-raise the button even though I was in the best position to do so because I would expect to fold some of my possible big bet action to this very scary board, even though they already made one bet. I would then find it likely to have killed almost all, or all the action, from anyone who stayed to see the turn.

Hopefully, some folks who would have folded to a flop bet by you but not the button, make a hand or a draw on the turn and give you action. I think there are only 11 hands that can beat you. Namely, pocket pairs 22-JJ and an Ax, with a runner-runner of the same rank they hold to make Quads or Aces over Kings.

This hand is so unlikely to lose, I wouldn't worry about that; although once I lost with the next strongest hand to yours. I had KJ, the flop came KKJ, and I lost to an Ax and runner runner Aces. But I get sucked out more than any other poker player in the world, at least lately, so you probably don't have to go by that.

-TomBk

Warning/Disclaimer: Beginner writing.

Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat
 

I disagree with those that say bet the flop. Who cares if the flop gets checked around? It's 1 small bet and no one can possibly have a hand they think has potential to be a winner here.

75% of all turn cards are going to put a two flush on the board and those people are drawing completely dead.

30% of turn cards are going to put a straight draw on the board. These cards (9-A) are also going to give some just enough of a hand to stay around.

Do you guys bet quads on the flop too? Christ, he's got the deck killed here.

Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat
 

[ QUOTE ]
On Pacific and Party .25/.5 &amp; .5/1, I have found being the first to bet into any paired board causes a lot of folds most of the time. I'm going to estimate I'll see 3 or more callers only 20% of the time and 1 or 2 callers 70% of the time. With the OP's hand, I think it's better to try to get more big bet calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tom - that experience is valuable in choosing a course of action (I don't have extensive experience at these games).

But would anyone who doesn't hold a K or a Q be more likely to call anything for a BB on the turn that they wouldn't call a SB for on the flop (maybe a flush draw)?

Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you guys bet quads on the flop too?

[/ QUOTE ]

Heck ya. Bet the flop, people are more likely to call 1SB than 1 BB.

Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you guys bet quads on the flop too?

[/ QUOTE ]

Heck ya. Bet the flop, people are more likely to call 1SB than 1 BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's small quads I agree because there's so many overs that can come that you're not scaring out customers. But in this case I think you are.

If I have 88/99/TT and the flop is KKQ and the flop is checked - on the turn (undercard) I'm going to bet and maybe even raise even though I'm drawing dead. With PF strength and a bet on the flop I'm out of the hand.

Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I have 88/99/TT and the flop is KKQ and the flop is checked - on the turn (undercard) I'm going to bet and maybe even raise even though I'm drawing dead. With PF strength and a bet on the flop I'm out of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why wouldn't you bet your 88/99/TT into this flop?

Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I have 88/99/TT and the flop is KKQ and the flop is checked - on the turn (undercard) I'm going to bet and maybe even raise even though I'm drawing dead. With PF strength and a bet on the flop I'm out of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why wouldn't you bet your 88/99/TT into this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

There was a PF raise by a person with a low VP$IP (Hero). What range of hands can I put him on? Not many that I'm ahead of.

Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I have 88/99/TT and the flop is KKQ and the flop is checked - on the turn (undercard) I'm going to bet and maybe even raise even though I'm drawing dead. With PF strength and a bet on the flop I'm out of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why wouldn't you bet your 88/99/TT into this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

There was a PF raise by a person with a low VP$IP (Hero). What range of hands can I put him on? Not many that I'm ahead of.

[/ QUOTE ]

But, if that's the case, why would you bet and raise the turn? You yourself would be fine checking through the flop to "keep customers" on the turn if you had Hero's hand, but you would also intrepret an opponent's check as weakness that justifies going nuts on the turn via betting and raising?

Look at it from another direction. When you bet into this flop, you probably scare the crap out of everyone else. You hold a strong hand, and are behind only AA, a K (how likely?) or a Q. When you get raised on the flop, you can release or call, depending on your read. Whatever happens, you're at least collecting better information at the cost of a SB rather than a BB on the turn when you have only one more card to see, and you don't run the risk of getting rolled bysomeone who would slowplay this flop in the way you suggest. You almost certainly thin the field with a flop bet or get feedback that let's you fold more confidently. If the turn card comes a blank and you bet again, are the gutshots (AJ) sticking around?

I may be effing this play up considerably, but if I'm holding 88/99/TT I'm almost certainly betting this flop (and will certainly bet if I play after pf-raiser's check).

Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat
 

[ QUOTE ]
would anyone who doesn't hold a K or a Q be more likely to call anything for a BB on the turn that they wouldn't call a SB for on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Catt,

Edit: I didn't read the other responses that came between your question and this until after I wrote this.

Occassionally, I've seen the whole table or almost the whole table fold to a bet on the turn after a paired flop was checked all the way through. Most players on the turn are still afraid of someone slowplaying trips from the flop and from what I've seen, rightfully so, because most players who make trips on the flop don't bet them until the turn anyway. The level of fear is usually less though, and the turn card usually improves some players' hands so they will be more inclined to call a bet.

Also, loose players and calling stations (obviously) are more likely to call than tight players, so you can take into account the texture of the table your at. And I think if tight players see loose players helping to build up the pot, it gives them a little more incentive to stay in also. It kind of sucks when almost everyone at the table is tight and you make a bet with a monster hand and everyone folds.

There can be a lot of danger in slowplaying though. If I make a boat on the flop and the rank which I have three of, is the lower of the two ranks, I bet because someone can make the higher boat and I want to make them pay for taking that shot. I had that happen a couple of times to me when I slowplayed a boat, and it sucks. (They may have stayed in the hand even if I bet the flop though, I have to look at that some more. )

Similarly, if I flop trips and the board is only two suited, I will usually bet and if I lose almost all the callers, so be it; but I won't let flush draws and backdoor flush draws hang around for free. The less people seeing the flop, the less chance for a flush draw to be out there though; so if I have only a couple of opponents *and* the pot is small, I might take a chance checking a two suited flop.

With the strength of a hand like the OP had, I don't think you have to worry much about getting beat, and you can use whatever strategy you think will work to get the most money into the pot.

- TomBk

Warning/Disclaimer: beginner writing

Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat
 

If I'm in hand against hero (I'm a villian remember), I'm in EP and the raise was after me (made by hero).

You're going to bet into a tight PF raiser on this flop?

Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat
 

Tom - good thought process. No need to identify yourself as a beginner at the end of each post -- beginner or experienced expert, if you offer up bad advice you're almost certain to be called on it and if you offer up good advice no one cares what your experience level is.

[ QUOTE ]
Most players on the turn are still afraid of someone slowplaying trips from the flop and from what I've seen, rightfully so, because most players who make trips on the flop don't bet them until the turn anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

This strikes me as a good reason to bet my trips on the flop and then bet them again on the turn (and in fact I will need a very good reason not to bet my trips on the flop).

Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're going to bet into a tight PF raiser on this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

With 88/99/TT, yes, I will. This flop either hit Hero or not. If it hit him, he's either going to smoothcall or raise. If it missed him, he's going to be crapping his pants that I bet into the pf-raiser.

Assume the flop hit him. If he raises, I can release (or in certain cirtcumstances I might call one back and check-fold UI on the turn).

Assume the flop missed him. If he still calls my flop bet and I bet again on the turn, what is he going to do? I have the best hand and he likely has a gutshot draw. If it missed him and he raises on a bluff, I'm in the same position as I was when I assumed it hit him (fold or call, check-fold UI, all for the cost of 1 SB).

Assume the flop hit him and he smooth-calls my bet on the flop and the turn because he's tricky. Now my river decision is tougher, and I'm either bet-folding or check-calling. Either way, I paid 2 BBs and 1 SB to see the showdown. Your line has you paying 1 or 2 BBs on the turn, and after that action I presume you're putting in at least one more on the river? Even if you don't 3-bet the turn after you're raised in your line, I risk an extra SB in total for the reward of possibly winning the pot at the turn. Make sense or no?