3 betting turn with TPTK and flush outs
 

I am trying to be selectively more aggressive with hands like TPTK.

1) Is the following a good spot?
2) Would you 3-bet this giving the history without the flush draw?

History: I am new to the table and have no PT reads on the villain. Recently I bluffed the whole way with K-high and he called down with a small pair.

preflop Hero raises UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Villain calls in sb, bb folds.

Flop 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
villain check / calls.

Turn 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Villain check / raises and Hero 3-bets

Re: 3 betting turn with TPTK and flush outs
 

if he calls the 3-bet, what's the river plan?

Re: 3 betting turn with TPTK and flush outs
 

I like it. He could very easily have QJ, KJ, lower flush draw, TT, 99 here.

Next question is.. What do you do if you don't improve on the river. I think that I bet call.

Re: 3 betting turn with TPTK and flush outs
 

With the flushdraw I definitely like this 3-bet. Good chance your ahead and if not we have 9+ outs to improve.

It's a bit more marginal without the flushdraw. I don't think you can make a blanket statement that 3-betting would be correct or not. With your history I think you could lean a bit towards a 3-bet but he's still an unknown and hard to make these decisions against. Against an unknown I tend to make plays that don't put me in a situation where I feel I need to fold (like if he caps the turn or c/r's the river). I would more often then not just call down the turn and call a bet or bet/call if checked to on the river.

Re: 3 betting turn with TPTK and flush outs
 

I think this is great. if he just calls the turn bet/fold the river (UI), if we hit two pair or trips bet/call

Re: 3 betting turn with TPTK and flush outs
 

Looks good to me.

Re: 3 betting turn with TPTK and flush outs
 

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if he calls the 3-bet, what's the river plan?

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I'd bet and fold to a raise if I didn't improve.

In the hand, villain ended up capping the turn and I obviously called. Fold river UI right?

Re: 3 betting turn with TPTK and flush outs
 

Very nice. Top pair, top kicker, nut flush draw is a great hand. Sure you may be behind after villian raises, but maybe not. He might have a flush draw also, or think you're speedin'.

Re: 3 betting turn with TPTK and flush outs
 

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I'd bet and fold to a raise if I didn't improve.



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Nah, assuming the river card isn't an overcard to your jacks, you need to adopt a plan that assures a showdown. Top pair top kicker has too many ways to win to fold on the river in this situation. Maybe you check call, or make a crying call of the raise. Either one is a better plan than bet/fold in my opinion.

In your original post you said you're trying to learn to become more aggressive, and your turn play is a fine example of your efforts to improve. I think you may have a river leak, however. As you become more aggressive, people will believe you less. The result is that, ironically, you must become a bit more loose and passive on the river in certain situations. Don't become weak at the same time you become more aggressive.

Re: 3 betting turn with TPTK and flush outs
 

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I'd bet and fold to a raise if I didn't improve.



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Nah, assuming the river card isn't an overcard to your jacks, you need to adopt a plan that assures a showdown. Top pair top kicker has too many ways to win to fold on the river in this situation. Maybe you check call, or make a crying call of the raise. Either one is a better plan than bet/fold in my opinion.

In your original post you said you're trying to learn to become more aggressive, and your turn play is a fine example of your efforts to improve. I think you may have a river leak, however. As you become more aggressive, people will believe you less. The result is that, ironically, you must become a bit more loose and passive on the river in certain situations. Don't become weak at the same time you become more aggressive.

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I had position on my opponent in this hand. I would be VERY surprised if he would check-raise me twice in a row after I 3-bet the turn with a hand worse than AJ.

edit: however I do agree that I need a plan to see a showdown no matter what. I think in the heat of the moment I probably would have bet/called a checkraise, not that that is correct.

Re: 3 betting turn with TPTK and flush outs
 

Let me add one thing to my last post. Some people may flame this, but if you were to adopt a blanket rule that, heads-up, you would never fold to a single bet on the river with any kind of made hand when getting better than 8 to 1, I guarantee you you could do very well and not have to worry about such situations again. Folding made hands on the river getting more than 8 to 1 when you get to close the action is something none of us can do well, I'll speculate.

Re: 3 betting turn with TPTK and flush outs
 

OK, I'll buy that. Then check call instead.

Re: 3 betting turn with TPTK and flush outs
 

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OK, I'll buy that. Then check call instead.

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well we're in position. you can't find a value bet there?

Re: 3 betting turn with TPTK and flush outs
 

I agree with you. I dont mind just calling a checkraise here (espcially in position)because he will surely lead into you on the river and if you catch a diamond you can raise the nuts and if not you get to showdown with the same three bets that you ended up putting in on the turn. You are prolly behind on the turn and by calling you get a chance to improve for a cheaper price and get to raise when you make strong hands.

Re: 3 betting turn with TPTK and flush outs
 

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OK, I'll buy that. Then check call instead.

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I had position on my opponent. If I check the river the hand is over.

Thanks,
efficacy

Re: 3 betting turn with TPTK and flush outs
 

Oops, you're right, I got the position turned around. In any event I stand by my original intent if not the details(!)--he's got to see the showdown here. Either bet/call or check behind.

Re: 3 betting turn with TPTK and flush outs
 

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Let me add one thing to my last post. Some people may flame this, but if you were to adopt a blanket rule that, heads-up, you would never fold to a single bet on the river with any kind of made hand when getting better than 8 to 1, I guarantee you you could do very well and not have to worry about such situations again. Folding made hands on the river getting more than 8 to 1 when you get to close the action is something none of us can do well, I'll speculate.

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No. You're either going to miss a ton of value bets, or you're going to pay off way too many raises. you need to do some hand reading and player reading.

Re: 3 betting turn with TPTK and flush outs
 

I'm not suggesting that by following this rule you have to forego speculative value bets. I'm just saying I'll make a crying call if I get raised at better than 8 to 1 nearly all the time with a made hand. I know this sounds controversial, and I don't pretend to be an expert, but it's something I believe pretty strongly. People do wacky things 11% of the time or better.

Re: 3 betting turn with TPTK and flush outs
 

if you put five BB's in on the turn and river with TPTK, you are almost never good 1/9 times. maybe we should just agree to disagree, but if you're paying off river check raises like in this hand against unknowns you are going to get outplayed a LOT.

Re: 3 betting turn with TPTK and flush outs
 

I'm glad you're trying to convince me, because who knows but I may be way off base. I think that people underestimate how seldom 1/9 really seems to be in practice. If you call down 7 times in a row and get shown a winner, we psycologically get very defensive and stop doing that action. In practice someone shows up with something wacky at least 10% of the time if not a little more, even though it doesn't seem like it. Even if that's all it is, and you just break even, it's better to be a break even caller on the river than a break even folder on the river.