A couple interesting hands - maybe
 

2 hands from tonights session I thought could use some discussion.

Hand 1
Standard table - fairly loose, very little PF raising.SB is decent. BB is extremely loose.

I get T9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in UTG+1 and limp. 2 others limp and SB raises. BB calls and so does everyone else.

Flop T87 rainbow
SB bets, BB raises, Hero ????


Hand 2
Good table had started to break and was 8 handed. Table had also turned tight and I was on my last round. LP is a decent player (25/7)

I am dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in LMP and open raise. Fold to LP who 3 bets, everyone clears out and I call.

Flop A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero???

Re: A couple interesting hands - maybe
 

I probably 3-Bet the first one. I have at least 33% equity to go against the blinds, plus I stand a good chance of gaining absolute position and taking a free card.

2nd hand either check raise. or lead and never slow down

Re: A couple interesting hands - maybe
 

Agreed. In hand one we are obviously going to continue and can fold a lot of hands that we would like to fold by 3-betting, including SB's overcards if he has them.

Hand 2 I like to c/r because it's very likely this board hit the PF 3-bettor... but you really can't go wrong as long as you go crazy.

Re: A couple interesting hands - maybe
 

easy 3-bet as we a) might have the best hand b) have a big draw when behind and c) because getting somebody behind you to fold a J is [censored] huge.

Second hand I like a bet/call, c/r the turn.

Re: A couple interesting hands - maybe
 

I'm not picking you out Hobbs, your post was just the easiest to break down.

Here's what I was thinking when I looked at the hand.

[ QUOTE ]
easy 3-bet as

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the decision to 3bet is a lot closer than people are making out.

[ QUOTE ]

we a) might have the best hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Might - being the opperative word. You've got two villians already liking their hands and two still to act.

[ QUOTE ]

b) have a big draw when behind

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. But have you added value by 3betting. I definitely don't think fold equity is a concern at this point.

[ QUOTE ]
and c) because getting somebody behind you to fold a J is [censored] huge.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't mean squat if you don't fold every J. This is only benificial if you think Tens and Nines will hold up. It's not like you can go to war with them when they hit.

All I'll say is that having one of the other two limpers call is worth .6 sb at least, having both call 1.2sb. Can we make this up on the times we aren't capped by folding overcards etc.

Who knows that SB won't 3bet if we call. If he does, you've got good position on the turn for when you do make your hand.

There are lots of factors to consider here.

If there was a chance for a free card, it would be easier.
If I knew I wasn't going to end up HU to a hand I'm behind.

If I knew I could fold every overcard or every J or I knew my T's were good.

I don't know.

But I'm not convinced that the benefits of 3betting outway the potential earnings from those behind and taking the initiative away from hands that you have good relative position on, for when you make your hand on the turn.

I think this hand would benefit from some hard mathematics.

I'm too tired to attempt them now and I'm sure that someone else would be better than me anyway.

Just my 2c.

Re: A couple interesting hands - maybe
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
we a) might have the best hand

[/ QUOTE ]Might - being the opperative word. You've got two villians already liking their hands and two still to act.

[/ QUOTE ]
ok so we agree.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
b) have a big draw when behind

[/ QUOTE ]
agreed. But have you added value by 3betting. I definitely don't think fold equity is a concern at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]
ok, we agree


I'm not going to quote the rest of your post, but I have some comments in general. First, the times we are behind our equity in this pot is going to be somewhere in the range of 25-30% depending on hand ranges for our opponents. Since 3-betting is almost a neutral EV situation to begin with. This means that we only need to be ahead a small portion of the time or get somebody behind us (including sb) to fold a J, a 7, or overcard(s) a small portion of the time.

Maybe tomorrow I'll run some calcs, but really when I say 'small' I'm guessing less then 10% and given that both seperately increase our equity from the neutral EV case, we are talking about not being behind like 5% of the time to make this a profitable 3-bet. So yeah I stand by my east 3-bet claim.

Re: A couple interesting hands - maybe
 

Kwaz, I think you need everything to go wrong here for the threebet to be bad. We need to be called by a jack(JT is the only one I can see someone calling with here, and if the original better or the people behind have it could find), we need our ten to not be good(and by not good I mean either outkicked or against a set, since if you're against an overpair or small two pair you have more outs), everyone(by everyone I mean the original better, and the two people left to act) has to fold, and we have to not get a freecard. If all of that happens we all die a little inside, but I'm pretty sure we're doing ok at this point to push this further. So basically we're looking at sb having a set or JT and everyone else folding vs. 2937923 other scenarios.

Frogic

Re: A couple interesting hands - maybe
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2
Good table had started to break and was 8 handed. Table had also turned tight and I was on my last round. LP is a decent player (25/7)

I am dealt K J in LMP and open raise. Fold to LP who 3 bets, everyone clears out and I call.

Flop A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero???

[/ QUOTE ]

More discussion on this hand on turn action

I checkraised the flop and LP called.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero???

Re: A couple interesting hands - maybe
 

[ QUOTE ]

First, the times we are behind our equity in this pot is going to be somewhere in the range of 25-30% depending on hand ranges for our opponents. Since 3-betting is almost a neutral EV situation to begin with. This means that we only need to be ahead a small portion of the time or get somebody behind us (including sb) to fold a J, a 7, or overcard(s) a small portion of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that 3bettting is very rarely, if ever, going to be -EV (unless it ends up HU with a better hand).

Just keep in mind that if you are behind - folding out ANY hand (failing folding every J) is going to be less +EV.

And we both agree that Hero is not ahead here often.

Re: A couple interesting hands - maybe
 

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:

Hand 2
Good table had started to break and was 8 handed. Table had also turned tight and I was on my last round. LP is a decent player (25/7)

I am dealt K J in LMP and open raise. Fold to LP who 3 bets, everyone clears out and I call.

Flop A Q T

Hero???



More discussion on this hand on turn action

I checkraised the flop and LP called.

Turn: Q

Hero???



[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of my first posts on this site, so I bow to my better-traveled brethren. Gotta start somewhere, so here's what I think:

I'd have led the flop in hopes that he flopped a good hand, but since you c/r'd and he just called, I'd lead the turn and see what he does. I'd figure to still be good if he just calls my turn bet, and would probably fold to a raise. Thoughts?

Re: A couple interesting hands - maybe
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that 3bettting is very rarely, if ever, going to be -EV (unless it ends up HU with a better hand).

Just keep in mind that if you are behind - folding out ANY hand (failing folding every J) is going to be less +EV.

And we both agree that Hero is not ahead here often.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say that we're against UI overs and a weaker pair often enough here to make this a definite 3-bet.

edit: Got rid of the stuff that isn't really central to the disagreement.

Re: A couple interesting hands - maybe
 

[ QUOTE ]

I'd say that we're against UI overs and a weaker pair often enough here to make this a definite 3-bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] Which one of these just raised the flop?

Is it the PFR who just bet into 4 people on a semi scary flop who just has overcards?
or is it the guy who just raised the same PFR in to 3 people on the semiscary flop who has the weaker pair?

Re: A couple interesting hands - maybe
 

I 3bet the first hand.

Second hand I could play it so many ways depending on previous hands. Probably go for CR on the flop. If he calls I lead the turn of course. If he 3bets I go for bet/3bet on the turn.

Re: A couple interesting hands - maybe
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I'd say that we're against UI overs and a weaker pair often enough here to make this a definite 3-bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] Which one of these just raised the flop?

Is it the PFR who just bet into 4 people on a semi scary flop who just has overcards?
or is it the guy who just raised the same PFR in to 3 people on the semiscary flop who has the weaker pair?

[/ QUOTE ]

SB is capable of betting UI overs here IMO, and the loose BB's wide range of hands could include weaker pairs here, especially if he believes SB can CB.

Even if you're skeptical of this, remember that given our flop equity this parlay doesn't need to occur very often to justify a 3-bet.

Re: A couple interesting hands - maybe
 

I understand what you're saying Redd as well as what everyone else has said.

The 3bet is justified and is +EV. 3betting does have a chance (very slim) of being -EV though.
Calling will ALWAYS be +EV.

The question is - which one is more positive.

The difference comes down to the equity added by knocking out overcards vs the added value of letting other hands remain.

If we are behind already, the value of knocking out overcards is nothing. And we are behind a large percentage of the time.

Other things to consider.

- the number of times you isolate yourself with a better hand.
- the number of times you can knock out a J. If this does work though, you add three 9 outs but implicitly take away a J out.
- The chance of a free card
- Would you make more on subsequent streets, when you make your hand, had you not 3bet and let others in or let others keep their initiative.
- Will someone else 3bet or cap anyway.
- Will players behind call two but not three when you are drawing.
- Will hands behind call 3 anyway.

These questions aren't easily answered.
- what are the likely holdings of the villians.
- how many bets are they willing to put in.
- will they be aggressive with marginal made hands.
- will they call two but not three.
- does he only raise with premium hands.
- are they capable of folding to continued aggression on a scary board.

I'm not saying that calling is better. I'm just saying that it's a little more complicated than "Easy 3bet"

FWIW. I 3bet.
IMO. The opportunity to gain the button for subsequent streets is the most compelling factor.

I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] constructive discussion.

Results
 

Hand 1

I 3 bet the flop. Everyone cleared out and SB also folded. BB check called me down and showed T6 and MHIG

I thought about just calling the SB raise in hopes fo keeping people in for my straight draw. I decided against it as I thought the rest of the field would probably fold to 2 bets let alone 3.

Hand 2

I check raised the flop and LP called. I bet the turn and LP folded. MHIG