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two questions about Slavery in the US
Question 1: If you were given the power to alter history and make it so that the US never used slavery would you? why or why not?
Question 2: How different would the US be today if slavery had never been used? Things to cover: Race relations economic affects role of blacks in America Africa and carribean nations the South the North polictics and the parties sports Stipulation: I want only to cover the slavery of blacks and not things like indentured servents or other forms. |
Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
Love it or hate it... slavery is what helped establish us as an economic powerhouse.
Our ability to cheaply harvest goods helped fuel our industrial revolution. It sucks... but the truth is that our country wouldn't be nearly as strong if it wasn't for slavery. Without slavery... all the other issues become a pointless argument. If we didn't import Africans... I don't think there would be nearly the population of Blacks in the U.S. that there is right now. Possibly, if they weren't slaves, many blacks would have come to America around the same time the Irish did... but I don't think it would be in such great numbers. P.S. - we would not be an Olympic power-house if not for slavery. We selectively breed great athletes for darn near 110 year. |
Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
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Question 2: How different would the US be today if slavery had never been used? Things to cover: Race relations economic affects role of blacks in America Africa and carribean nations the South the North polictics and the parties sports [/ QUOTE ] Should only take about twenty years of even superficial research to come close to adequately answering this...so let me be the first to bid adieu to whoever tries to tackle this. See you in 2025. |
Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
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[ QUOTE ] Question 2: How different would the US be today if slavery had never been used? Things to cover: Race relations economic affects role of blacks in America Africa and carribean nations the South the North polictics and the parties sports [/ QUOTE ] Should only take about twenty years of even superficial research to come close to adequately answering this...so let me be the first to bid adieu to whoever tries to tackle this. See you in 2025. [/ QUOTE ] Best guesses will work. |
Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
I concur... I tried to nip it in the bud...
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Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
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Question 2: How different would the US be today if slavery had never been used? [/ QUOTE ] Your questions imply we have quit using slavery -- I don't believe we have. It's now a position that the enslaved can work out of, or educate themselves out of -- that's good. It's no longer a position the enslaved are born into -- that's good. But has it gone away? No. Even reading Adam Smith in 177? he understood it. He recommended freeing the slaves because it was cheaper to do so -- what we have today looks a lot like what he proposed. |
Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
The idea that slavery was essential to the thriving of the American colonies is flawed and not true. Whatever economic system we had would have worked, because the people who were here would have done the job needed regardless of what institutions we had.
Slavery in the American colonies was an accident of history. Slavery was used by Spain, England, the Netherlands, France and others at the time, so it was adopted here. But it was not ever essential to our survival. Societies just go along with what is accepted around the world, and slavery was accepted at the time. Some people act as if no one would ever do manual labor unless they were a slave. Clearly this is not true, and reflects the general laziness of people today than it reflects on the facts of history. |
Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
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[ QUOTE ] Question 2: How different would the US be today if slavery had never been used? Things to cover: Race relations economic affects role of blacks in America Africa and carribean nations the South the North polictics and the parties sports [/ QUOTE ] Should only take about twenty years of even superficial research to come close to adequately answering this...so let me be the first to bid adieu to whoever tries to tackle this. See you in 2025. [/ QUOTE ] I took one look at his questions and thought the same thing. |
Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
My professors couldn't answer this, but that doesn't mean it isn't an interesting thing to think about/discuss.
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Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
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Question 1: If you were given the power to alter history and make it so that the US never used slavery would you? why or why not? [/ QUOTE ] i would not want to hang out w/ anyone who answered no to this question. i truly hope none of my friends would answer that way. |
Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
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[ QUOTE ] Question 1: If you were given the power to alter history and make it so that the US never used slavery would you? why or why not? [/ QUOTE ] i would not want to hang out w/ anyone who answered no to this question. i truly hope none of my friends would answer that way. [/ QUOTE ] how much worse off would things have to be now for you to change your mind? For example let's say in some sci-fi way you discovered that getting rid of slavery in the US, resulted in a weaker America and because of that Nazi Germany and Japan won WWII? Would that make a difference? What about somethig less extreme like most current day American's off all races having a much lower standard of living and more poverty? Note-- i'm not argueing that any of the above is a reasonable assumption. |
Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
interesting scenario. just short of some night-marish reality or the human race almost being wiped out i would sacrifice what i have now to have done away w/ US slavery.
for over 400 years (i believe) the transatlantic slave trade carried on and carried millions upon millions of slaves to all parts of the world. to stop the US influx in order so we're not as economically stable or technologically advanced seems like a no brainer. we're talking MILLLIONS of lives. i dont need my 2100fp monitor that badly. |
Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
Maybe it is obvious to some of you, but I'm not so sure that slavery had a net positive economic impact on the US if you consider it's costs up to the present. Slavery cost this country a lot and it's legacy still costs. Most of the dramatic increases in US power took place after slavery was abolished.
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Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
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Maybe it is obvious to some of you, but I'm not so sure that slavery had a net positive economic impact on the US if you consider it's costs up to the present. Slavery cost this country a lot and it's legacy still costs. Most of the dramatic increases in US power took place after slavery was abolished. [/ QUOTE ] especially when you consider the cost of civl war alone. |
Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
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Maybe it is obvious to some of you, but I'm not so sure that slavery had a net positive economic impact on the US if you consider it's costs up to the present. Slavery cost this country a lot and it's legacy still costs. Most of the dramatic increases in US power took place after slavery was abolished. [/ QUOTE ] Slavery wasn't that productive while it was happening either. It had nothing to do with our prosperity and growth. We would have used whatever resources we happened to have to get where we are. Slavery just happened to be available to us, but was not necessary. |
Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
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Maybe it is obvious to some of you, but I'm not so sure that slavery had a net positive economic impact on the US if you consider it's costs up to the present. Slavery cost this country a lot and it's legacy still costs. Most of the dramatic increases in US power took place after slavery was abolished. [/ QUOTE ] Slavery was not as bad of a relationship as many would have us believe -- and given conditions in some parts of the world, it wasn't necessarily such a bad deal for the slaves. Considering where many were coming from, they may have come voluntarily. No question America had a lot of really nasty slave owners. It seems the masters in the south wanted their slaves dignity and their souls as well as their labor -- the labor they would have had in any event. |
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Question 1: If you were given the power to alter history and make it so that the US never used slavery would you? why or why not? [/ QUOTE ] i would not want to hang out w/ anyone who answered no to this question. i truly hope none of my friends would answer that way. [/ QUOTE ] how much worse off would things have to be now for you to change your mind? [/ QUOTE ] It doesn't matter. No outcome can justify the violation of others' rights. Avoiding a future violation of rights cannot be used as an excuse for a present violation. However, this is less repugnant than the idea that past rights violations are justified by current prosperity they enabled. |
Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
Slavery was not necessary for economic growth. Has anyone heard of the cotton gin, thrashers, steamboats, railroads etc.? Economic growth would still have happened.
Without slavery there would have been no brutality of an extreme amount of innocent people (I don't know the total number of slaves in this country), no civil rights abuses, a big reduction in constitutional amendments, laws, court cases, etc. The Civil War would still have happened. Slavery was just one of many last straws that would have ignited the war. |
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Has anyone heard of the cotton gin, ... [/ QUOTE ] The invention of the cotton gin singlehandedly cemented the slave status of the Blacks in the South. |
Depends........
Question 1: If you were given the power to alter history and make it so that the US never used slavery would you? why or why not?
************************************************** ****** Depends.....If I was a black American and I cared for my family, I would thank god for slavery. Why? Because without slavery I'd still be in Africa living in squalor, disease, corruption, and trying to avoid rampant crime/thuggery. In the USA, my family would have a chance of having a happy/normal life. Otherwise, I would have made sure slavery in American never existed. Check out some of Walter Williams columns. Walter is a conservative economics professor who often substitutes for Rush Limbaugh on his radio talk show. Walter is black and his views on slavery and race relations are a good read. http://www.townhall.com/columnists/w.../archive.shtml Question 2: How different would the US be today if slavery had never been used? ************************************************** ******* Economy: The US economic growth would have been slowed due to smaller production of cotton but after the civil war cotton never reclaimed its "King Cotton" status. The economic slowdown would have be compensated since the American Civil War never would have occurred. This war devestated the economy of the South. Bottom line: The overall economic effects would have been minute and perhaps better if slavery never occurred. Race relations: There wouldn't be many blacks in the USA. I see no changes here. The Klu Klux Klan would never have existed. Role of blacks in America: Again there would not be very many blacks in the USA. Most Africans could not afford to buy a boat ticket to come to the USA. America would be mostly white and hispanics would be the dominent minority. Seeing blacks in the USA would be like seeing unicorns. Politics and the parties: The modern democratic party would be MUCH, MUCH weaker. Sports/Culture: No Michael Jordans, no Wilt Chamberlains, no New Orleans Jazz, etc... Blacks have had a big impact in the entertainment/sports industry in the USA. Fewer gold medals in track and field events in the Olympics. Crime: Less Crime. If you were to survey crimes by race in the USA, blacks engage in more than their fair share of crime. Even Jesse Jackson made the comment that once he heard a bunch of loud talking teenagers behind him and when he turned around he felt relief because they were white. American blacks also are the biggest victims of black crime. |
Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
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However, this is less repugnant than the idea that past rights violations are justified by current prosperity they enabled. [/ QUOTE ] This would depend on what we define as a right. Many would argue today that forcing school children to learn in english rather than teaching in their native tongue is a violation of their rights. I would argue it is not a violation, and might be inclined to use their future prosperity as an argument for immersion. Many would disagree. |
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Many would argue today that forcing school children to learn in english rather than teaching in their native tongue is a violation of their rights. [/ QUOTE ] Are people really arguing it's a violation of their rights? I usually hear it framed in terms whether it is good public policy to teach a non-native speaking student math, for example, in his non-native tongue. Maybe people are arguing that it is a violation of the right to a public education (assuming the state holds public education as a right), but that's not what people traditionally think of when they talk about "violating one's rights." |
Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
There are many examples -- how about a "right to abortion"? Would it be repugnant of me to argue that the current prosperity of a non-aborted person was due to past civil rights violations?
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Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
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This would depend on what we define as a right. Many would argue today that forcing school children to learn in english rather than teaching in their native tongue is a violation of their rights. [/ QUOTE ] A) Forcing someone to attend school isn't forcing them to learn anything. (NB: forcing them to attend school in the first place is a violation of rights, regardless of language) B) You can send your child to any school you want, or self-educate them. C) The government shouldn't be in the education business anyway. D) You don't have a "right" to an education. E) You don't have a right to never be exposed to the English language. |
Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
You misunderstood my question. My question wasn't whether you COULD argue it was a violation of rights. My question was whether that's how people are actually arguing it (as you suggested they were.) I just don't know if I see people framing the issue as a "rights" issue.
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Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
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D) You don't have a "right" to an education. [/ QUOTE ] It depends on the state. Some states, in their constitutions, have a provision for the right to a free public education. |
Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
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[ QUOTE ] D) You don't have a "right" to an education. [/ QUOTE ] It depends on the state. Some states, in their constitutions, have a provision for the right to a free public education. [/ QUOTE ] That's a privledge, not a right. |
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That's a privledge, not a right [/ QUOTE ] No, again some states (in the STATE Constitution and/or statutes) confer a RIGHT to a free public education. |
Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
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No, again some states (in the STATE Constitution and/or statutes) confer a RIGHT to a free public education. [/ QUOTE ] They can call it whatever they want. Governments cannot grant rights. They can only grant privledges. |
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[ QUOTE ] That's a privledge, not a right [/ QUOTE ] No, again some states (in the STATE Constitution and/or statutes) confer a RIGHT to a free public education. [/ QUOTE ] But I bet a bunch of people think it is a natural right. |
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They can call it whatever they want. Governments cannot grant rights. They can only grant privledges. [/ QUOTE ] My last word on the subject -- there is an important distinction between rights and privileges. This isn't it. |
Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
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It doesn't matter. No outcome can justify the violation of others' rights. Avoiding a future violation of rights cannot be used as an excuse for a present violation. However, this is less repugnant than the idea that past rights violations are justified by current prosperity they enabled. [/ QUOTE ] How about a "right to abortion"? Would it be repugnant of me to argue that the current prosperity of a non-aborted person was due to past civil rights violations? |
Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
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[ QUOTE ] They can call it whatever they want. Governments cannot grant rights. They can only grant privledges. [/ QUOTE ] My last word on the subject -- there is an important distinction between rights and privileges. This isn't it. [/ QUOTE ] So you are claiming that rights originate with benevolence of the state? Your right to expression, self-defence, and property would exist even if the government you happened to be subjected to chose not to recognize those rights. Nobody has a right to have anything *given* to them. |
Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
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How about a "right to abortion"? Would it be repugnant of me to argue that the current prosperity of a non-aborted person was due to past civil rights violations? [/ QUOTE ] To make that argument, you'd have to first show that the mother of that person wanted an abortion and was prevented from having one. Then you'd have to establish that abortion is actually a right. |
Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
They can.
The difference between privileges and rights deals with the extent and ease with which government can take them away, not with the source of their existence. |
Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
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To make that argument, you'd have to first show that the mother of that person wanted an abortion and was prevented from having one. Then you'd have to establish that abortion is actually a right. [/ QUOTE ] Then to make an argument against slavery, you would have to show that the enslaved really wanted to stay where they were beforehand, and that upon reaching US soil citizenship was actually a right. How about the one-quarter of our population we deny rights simply because of age discrimination. We do this with the paternalistic attitude that it is for their own good (future prosperity). Would it be repugnant of me to argue that the current prosperity of an adult person was due to past civil rights violations? |
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The difference between privileges and rights deals with the extent and ease with which government can take them away, not with the source of their existence. [/ QUOTE ] Just because our courts currently take the position that words mean whatever they say they mean -- does not make it true. I side with pvn, unless we are talking about how these things are interpreted in practice. |
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I think both you and pvn are making the mistake of confusing the generic term "right" with "inalienable right" or "god-given right" or something in that nature.
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Re: two questions about Slavery in the US
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I think both you and pvn are making the mistake of confusing the generic term "right" with "inalienable right" or "god-given right" or something in that nature. [/ QUOTE ] That's what a right is. It resides in the person, it is not granted by the state. The Bill of Rights did not grant any rights to people -- it restricted the state from imposing on those rights the people held. |
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Politics and the parties: The modern democratic party would be MUCH, MUCH weaker [/ QUOTE ] actually wouldn't it be much much stronger? No civil rights movement which destroyed the white southern democratic party. |
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