Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

Does anyone do this? Say you are sitting at a typical 5/10, capped buy online and 3 fish have about 1800 or more. Do you ever make bad calls preflop, or "gamble" on certain flops in order to hopefully double through so you can cover?

For example, I am more likely to call a raise with KJo and 1000 behind if I want to catch up to other players, whereas when I have 3000 behind I don't even think about it and muck. Or I'll raise 65s utg with only 1000 behind in the hopes of hitting and stacking so that I can cover, even though long term with only 1000 behind this is probably a -ev play. A flop example would be check-raising all in with just a flush draw (i.e. you know you only have 9 outs against someone's tptk - and they are likely to call.) I also limp in with a lot more crap on the button/co after several limpers, and I'm constantly reloading to 1000 after every hand....

The list goes on and on, but I think you all know what I'm saying.

I find that when I do this I normally get myself stuck about 1/2 a buyin give or take, but a few hours later all is well.


Just curious to see if anyone else does this.

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

I never really thought of doing this, but against some people it is surely a good idea. Gamble with 1k now for the chance to get allin with 2k later as a big favourite.

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

I do this in live capped buy in games - Get it all in w AK preflop against the right guys etc...play it more like a tournament until I'm deep enough to cover.

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

Hmm, how do deep do you start out? I'll rarely get it all in preflop with AK for 1000 online, unless the guy is severely tilted or a maniac. This might be a little extreme.

Another example of what I'm talking about, giving excessive action to short stacks (200 or less). When I am trying to cover fish I will call this all in with almost any 2. If I hit I'm on my way there, if I don't, just click reload.

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

la is prob. talking about the capped games in LA, like the 5-5 300 games or 5-10 500 type.


azk- you should be more likely to call w any two on button when deeper, not short.

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

The specific game is 5/10 400 cap. You can also buy another 400 when you get below 200, so I sometimes make thinner calls to either hit a big flop or get below 200 so I can buy back up. I Probably wouldn't be as live for 1K.

Capped buy in really does suck, I gotta get out more.

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

The answer is you should always make the correct decision and playing KJ to an opened pot is usually and error. However, i do the same thing. I take chances as well, it is something im working on. On the flip side i find if i have a monster night sometimes i play too tight as if to protect my huge stack... Both things are things i need to work on But to answer you shouldnt play catch up make the right choices and your stack should grow....

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

To me it's the opposite. If the game is very good I will not gamble in big pot just to get a bigger stack to cover, if losing that pot will put me on tilt / make me play worse. It will often put me in a bad state of mind and I start making bad plays.

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

I do this if the circumstances are right, namely the fish has to have demonstrated that they clearly have no clue how to play their larger stack, the stack has to be in excess of 200x the BB in a caped buy in, ie 4k in the 10/20, I have to have position on them and preferably there aren't 1 or more skilled LAG's with immediate position on me. I won't go completely nuts with it but I'll definitely push/gamble more in situations where I very likely have a 40% or better of winning even against players that I know I have virtually 0% fold equity against. And I've noticed there are definitely a # of winning regulars at both the Stars & Party 10/20's who do the same, turn up the aggro/gamble factor when there is a visible fish with a stack.

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

[ QUOTE ]
azk- you should be more likely to call w any two on button when deeper, not short.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I realize this, and I do. But I'm saying to get a stack to do this, I'll also limp behind 3 limpers with a lot of holdings...

In short, I'm looking to see if anyone else plays bad, -ev poker, making loose calls, bad bluffs, etc... in an effort to reap the benefits of +ev play with a bigger stack.

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

[ QUOTE ]
To me it's the opposite. If the game is very good I will not gamble in big pot just to get a bigger stack to cover, if losing that pot will put me on tilt / make me play worse. It will often put me in a bad state of mind and I start making bad plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are rolled it should be irrelevant. You can always reload.

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

This is what I am talking aobut.

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

[ QUOTE ]

In short, I'm looking to see if anyone else plays bad, -ev poker, making loose calls, bad bluffs, etc... in an effort to reap the benefits of +ev play with a bigger stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do, though probably not as much as I could. For me, it's never bad bluffs, but rather very very thin calls preflop, Cheap longshot draws on flop, and expensive slightly -ev draws on flop and turn.

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

I think it's waaay too easy to justify a lot of really crappy play doing this however, imo to do this and have it be +EV overall pretty much every component has to be there, one or more fish with big stacks who are really & truly bad & you have position on them, no other deep stacked LAG's with position on you & preferably the rest of the table being a rock garden so you can sucessfully isolate the fish a high % of the time. And I really don't like calling tight mini rocks with any 2, it's much more a matter of being willing to play a good but not great draw very, very aggro or calling small to medium all in's with more marginal pairs like 10-10.

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

good post.

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

hence the post about the flush over flush situation about how people were making looser calls (thus the laydown, since hero was expecting villain to want a call) when BBuddy was on gorilla tilt with a 10k stack.

but yeah in a live game capped buy in like the 5/5 1000 i used to play back in the days of live poker, if i can put someone on JJ/TT or so i'll definitely push AK even if i think there's a 1% chance they'll fold.

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

Yes...but not too bad....I'll take up to about a 40/60 shot if the buy in 75BB or less.

Also, I need to feel like the villain is there to stay a while so that I have a shot. I did this several years ago in a Party $50 game because a superfish had $400 in front. I made it to $375 before our all-in confrontation. Also, I made a ridiculous bluff on the superfish and then showed him the cards so that he would get pissed. I flopped a st8 and he flop 2 pair and then there was a 765 pot in an NL50 game.

He rivered a full house though [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]. Vomit.

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

I would not recommend it. I only have a small sample size, but I have tried this maybe 10 times before. All 10 times the fish takes a chunk of my money, but busts out to someone else.

The fish then leaves the table having distributed my money.

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

I do it... sparingly

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

I do it live often but rarely online. Live its easier for those same bad players to think how bad you are and react incorrectly and also not want to get up from the table. Not only does it allow you to have a chance at covering the worse players but also allows you to have a great image. Limpreraising all in, raising blind, straddling, pushing most draws, etc are all methods usable.

Search for the post about paul phillips @ the mirage.

-JP

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

yeah i do this to some extent... i wont call EP raises with KJo (WHY?), but ill CR allin with draws not minding if they call and i take the worst of it as doubling up quick is of the essence if there is some guy with three buyins who will never ever fold TP.

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

I do this a lot, I'll get all in with AK preflop in a live game to try to build a stack. It depends on other stack sizes. If there is a donkey on a card rush with a huge stack, I'll be more aggressive trying to get chips so that he dumps more of it to me than one of the other good players. It only good players have a lot of chips, I won't be as aggressive trying to build a stack.

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

[ QUOTE ]
i wont call EP raises with KJo (WHY?),

[/ QUOTE ]


so you can use your position to outplay them postflop [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's waaay too easy to justify a lot of really crappy play doing this however, imo to do this and have it be +EV overall pretty much every component has to be there, one or more fish with big stacks who are really & truly bad & you have position on them, no other deep stacked LAG's with position on you & preferably the rest of the table being a rock garden so you can sucessfully isolate the fish a high % of the time. And I really don't like calling tight mini rocks with any 2, it's much more a matter of being willing to play a good but not great draw very, very aggro or calling small to medium all in's with more marginal pairs like 10-10.

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I really don't recommend just anybody trying what AZK is talking about. Like IHateCats said above, all the elements have to be aligned. Not only that, the player has to be able to know when they are aligned and then exploit the situation for all it's worth. I believe there very very few players who are capable of putting all the pieces together and making it work.

btw, cats excellent points in general there.

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i wont call EP raises with KJo (WHY?),

[/ QUOTE ]


so you can go broke [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]i see. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

nh

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

The thread about Paul Phillips at the mirage a few months back had lots of discussion about this.....

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

Yes.

hmmm...
 

your gambling so you can cover but then once you do cover you tighten up?? seems weird to me. i like the idea of buying in even shorter then moving in on them w/ ak/aq/tt etc...greenstien already wrote about this. once im as deep as them just give me position and 2 cards.

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

What if the game breaks or the big stacks leave after you've dumped a couple buy-ins trying to cover? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Making -ev decisions in capped buyin games to cover fish...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone do this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not. But I'm going to be a little nitty here and point out that if a decision has the possibility of creating an incredibly +EV situation then that decision is itself +EV. So the subject is worded poorly, because many of the plays you describe are +EV.