If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

Since SnG's are relatively easy to learn how to play, and can be multitabled easily almost without even paying attention, wouldn't they die if a SnG book came out?

Or at least become more difficult. ROI would drop significantly at each level, and everyone would play tight early levels.

Thoughts on this?

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

Since SSHE is so relatively easy to play and multi-table, if a book came out teaching people how to play the game properly...wouldn't it die? Wait, there IS a definitive work on SSHE...and 95% of players can't be bothered to read it. No one studies something they think they already know (which is the case of many, many online players)...and very few people wish to "study" their pure-enjoyment hobby (which is the case of many other online players).

No, I don't think a book on SnG's would kill the game. I think it would have relatively little effect.

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

With all the Poker on tv people think the stuff they see is all that happens. They forget about the hours of boredom and folding before they reach final table. Comparing final table to a SNG is a mistake many make. I agree many people feel they know enough and wouldn't even bother.

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

Each time a new book comes out I worry that everyone is going to become an expert and the easy games are going to dry up. But I agree, nobody wants to put the work in, most people just want to have fun playing (and there's nothing wrong with this) so I don't worry anymore when a good book comes out. The other thing about SSHE is that the strategies are not easy to apply -- IMO you have to study and re-study that book in order to make it work for you. Those who read is quickly only once become LAG IMO.

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

Well, I think SnG's are even easier than limit.

Im also getting paranoid, and always wonder why people even wanna put info out. I may be leaving my day job and doing this for a living, so...

I learned the basics from reading, and found thats it usless to read anymore concepts without putting them to practice, ofcourse. When people DO pick up some information, they realize the same.

Compare live play to online, you can't say those books don't change the game. Also, Im pretty sure there is almost nothing out there about SnG's, that makes a huge difference.

Whatever, Im tired. Ill fire up some games though. Thanks for your thoughts

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

there is this book

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...6&v=glance

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

Isn't that what everyone said about party 2/4 when SSHE came out?

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

Meh, WHATEVER!

It'll happen one day, you just watch! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

[ QUOTE ]
there is this book

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...6&v=glance

[/ QUOTE ]
bwahaha, I hope all my opps read that, it can only make it easier for me.

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

Me to my buddy(who luckboxed his way into a seat and is a horrible player) a week before we fly to vegas to play in the ME of the WSOP.

Me: Hey, I just finished reading this book (HOH vol. 1) on Strategy for no limit holdem tournies, you want to look it over, it has some good stuff in there.

My Buddy: No, I don't want to cloud my mind, I don't really want to have to think too much.

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

Wouldn't it kill SNGs if a website dedicated to it was created?

Oh wait...

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

I doubt it we have this site which is free and as good as any book, fish still there just don't crack the tank.

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

you guys use SSHE by Miller for STTs?! I thought the definative book on STTs was HOH by Harrington?

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

They were making an analogy.

SSHE : Limit 2-4
and
[some SNG guidebook] : NL SNG

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

Your friend does have a bit of a point. Misapplying a concept you read the night before could be disastrous. Then again if he didn't have a strategy beforehand, any strategy is better than none.

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

If sit and gos were so simple, everyone who's been using this site for a while would be 8 tabling the $215s by now.

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

The Harrington books are basically SNG's (only read volume one yet though)

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

The newest volume of Jones' Winning Low Limit Hold'em has a section on SnG play. Plenty of folks still call raises with junk and then call off all their chips with 2nd pair, no draw...

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Since SSHE is so relatively easy to play and multi-table, if a book came out teaching people how to play the game properly...wouldn't it die? Wait, there IS a definitive work on SSHE...and 95% of players can't be bothered to read it. No one studies something they think they already know (which is the case of many, many online players)...and very few people wish to "study" their pure-enjoyment hobby (which is the case of many other online players).

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree.... I took a finance professor in college who was teaching us how to use his buy and sell screens based on willian oneil/peter lynch formula and one of the students asked him If you teach this system to the whole class wouldnt they cancel out the market? THe professor responded by saying i could teach the system to 1000 people and only 5 will get it because only a few will have the discipline to use it.

I take this example in stock selection just like all the hold em books that are coming out.

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

I like your example, Last Samurai.

People will always be lazy and underperform. They don't take it seriously. This is why you have varying limits and skill levels in poker, and why that money will always flow from bad players to good ones. People don't play poker professionally at .01/.02 no limit...but I learned from playing in this games, moved to the .05/.10 and had to learna lot more...and so on. SO a book comes out, many people don't comprehend enough of what they read and as far as being able to apply it...come on. EVEN if they had the capability, they lack the patience. You will always have unskilled players playing above thier bankroll. You'll always have a good, skilled player playing at a lower level, for various reasons. A book on the subject might make a few people better, a few people worse but won't affect your EV. I don't think so at least. How many kids are going pro in baseball from Emansky's back-to-back-to-back AAU championship defensive drill DVD also airing on ESPN? None, or maybe 5...how many people lost weight becasue of Dr. Phil's Ultimate Weight Loss SOlution? Not as many as could stand to. Give someone a fish feed him for a day, teach him to fish and he might get a job somewhere else. Also, one other point, most people don't play poker for a job...so while you are stressing over your EV in the 22s, they're blowing a 20-spot grandma gave them last week.

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

in the recent card player issue, scott fishman said he was in the process of doing a book, and if i recall, he said it would be mostly on nl tourneys and sng's. he said he will lay out how to start at the bottom levels and come up with sng's. we will still be fine though...people are just to lazy...

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The Harrington books are basically SNG's (only read volume one yet though)

[/ QUOTE ]

theyre not very applicable to party sng's

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

I "believe" Fischman has been quoted as saying he uses almost no math when he plays basically and only uses instinct. I highly doubt he's going to write a groundbreaking sit and go book.

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I "believe" Fischman has been quoted as saying he uses almost no math when he plays basically and only uses instinct. I highly doubt he's going to write a groundbreaking sit and go book.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought fischman multitabled? Seems like that would be really hard to do on "instinct"

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

I don't know I just remember some interviews he gave where he talked about how he never read any poker books and didn't need to use "math" as he could just use his instinct from his years of being a dealer.

Sorry I don't have the source, but I remember it was talked about in the WPT forum, and it's possible I'm misconstruing some of the facts.

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

well it sounds about right and seems to be what a lot of "pros" say, maybe he was just talking about live play

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If sit and gos were so simple, everyone who's been using this site for a while would be 8 tabling the $215s by now.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are other reasons for not 8 tabling the $215s even if you have been on this site for a while, besides not understanding SNGs.

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

I know it's just funny, I mean there are books on limit holdem that tell you to never play any hands. Meanwhile every casino you go to has the 10-20 game filled with 8 players who play way too many hands. I don't see why this would be any different for sit and go's.

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Meh, WHATEVER!

It'll happen one day, you just watch! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

AAHHH, the sky is falling!!! Everyone look out!

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

The huge majority of people don't play poker in order to be "consistent winners", or to make money, or any other such goal, like the relative minority group that posts and reads here. People play to enjoy, and playing correctly is usualy pretty far from being enjoyable for most people, especially if you only 1-tabling.

Also, there is much more in this game (even in SNGs) than simply learning to play "correctly" and "killing" the game. Most people, for instance, can't deal with any kind of negative variacnce. No matter how many books about SNGs they'll read, the second somone hits his 3 outer on them, they start tilting and they'll make major mistakes in the next SNG they'll play.

BTW, questiosn like you're asking here were asked many times, many months/years ago about all forms of poker. There is a huge amount of written theory about limit poker, and still the games are highly beatable. The argument that SNGs are "easier" to master, does not makes sense in this respect, because, again, people could lose much much less in limit, if they only started playing a bit tighter from early position or whatever, for instance, which is very easy to do. But most players (i.e, fish) don't do it, because it's very boring.

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

Ah. Bankroll and balls?

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

Wouldn't this work too since SnGs are basically final tables?
Final Table Poker:
www.expertinsight.com
I guess the starting chip stacks and blinds are different but a lot of the same concepts would apply. Selective aggression, hand selection, etc.

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

Thank goodness for the TV generation, who think they know it all because they saw it on the tupe.

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

good thread!

i have to disagree that HoH volume 1 would be excellent for SNG's. i know harrington throws some SNG type problems in there. but i'm not sure he's actually playing in too many of these actual events that we all play.

the big thing about SNG's is that the blinds get up on you really, really fast unless you double or triple up in first few rounds (and that is very "good card"-dependent). it seems like in SNG's you are almost always under some kind of pressure from blinds.

and even though i love harrington's books, i think they jump from pretty deep stacks to heads-up unbelievably quickly. i didn't think this and i started thinking it and i checked the table of contents and it's totally true. his zones are great ideas, but i think i need more guidance as to what to do in the medium zones (basically, i guess i'm saying SNG's are mostly medium zone play).

and i'd like to see more differentiation between heads up vs. 4 player vs. 6 player, because short-handed is where much of the $$$$$ is in SNG's.

and HoH pretty much assumes your opposition is good like at WSOP. we need miller or harrington to tell us how to beat the terrible SNG's most efficiently (don't get me wrong, i'm doing it already, but i'd like to maximize profits)

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

Limit Omaha 8/b is pretty much a solved game. Go sit at a Party .5/1 table and try to leave with less than you started.

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

Well at least the general consensus of the forum agrees(quietly) that it will not get easier.
All kinds of poker is a mix of science and art.Easy to teach the science aspect to any individual willing to put in the work to apply the principles.One can not teach the art form which requires feel which you get from experience and a willingness to be inovative.SNG's have given some poker players without too much experience a way to make alot of money through learning the principles.Players were and (are) still making alot of money using these basic principles.But one has to ask oneself why do I make alot of money very quickly by learning some basic stuff and applying what I have learnt.WHY? The answer is most players do not know those basic principles but still play because they still cash in sometimes because most of the players don't know there stuff.As soon as these players start to realize that they are clearly the weaker players and start to cash in less often because more people are slowly or quickly learning they will either give up or start to learn themselves.The nature of a human being is to be lazy about things and wish to believe that they are born with special powers.So, most people will not try very hard to go out of there way to learn something which will commit them to work at it.Now give them a quick guide lets say and they will look at it.SNG's IMO do not take much working out as to the general stratagy to be employed especially if pointed out to a player in an ABC form.Which means?Slowly they will get tougher.Now, no one will ever be able to teach art,which seperates the great from the good.Unfortunately in the SNG world there is little room for an artist in poker to move around in due to the pace of the game.(fast).I predict for a long while yet the SNG's wil be a profitable way for a poker player.But not forever for the SNG's are indeed the easiest form of poker in which you can make alot of money and possibly very quicky due to how easy it is to grasp the general principles.
My point is that the more information out there, the harder it will get.Now,this is in the long run I mean.Today maybe fine.Two years down the road?three? who knows.

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

Personally--- I think that "good players" are easier to play against than bad or great players.

I don't mind at all if a few bad players become more predictable.

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

There's a lot of bad strategy advice out there.

A lot of good players move up through the levels and then sometimes out of SNGs all together.

New people are always coming. In fact, whether or not there is fresh meat is probably the only thing that matters. Any publicity probably helps.

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

The so called fish will play if they enjoy to play.The enjoyment for the weaker players soon diminishes when it is obvious even to themselves that they are outclassed by everybody else.So any small increase(which is natural)in stronger play by everyone who takes the game anywhere serious brings about a further small increase and so on.What is not natural IMO is that all of a sudden everyone who takes the game serious suddenly becomes aware of all the small advantages at where ever we may be in the game because someone wishes to blurt that information out.
Short term everything is positive.People believing they are better than they actually are,long term not so great basically,because the real weak players who really play just for fun (not because they are stupid)will not have that fun once they see they are completely out-classed by everyone.Long term is mainly my point.

Re: If a book on SnG\'s came out, wouldn\'t they die?
 

There are quite a few people who play for fun and wouldn't want to stick to a winning strategy even if they knew about it.