Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

This situation occurred as I just sat down in a 10/20 at my local casino. I took the 4 seat and it was one of the first hands I saw at the table, I was not involved in the hand. The 8 seat raised and the 3 seat (on my immediate right) called. Both are experienced players and I know them both and am friendly with both etc.

Flop was something like A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 seat checks, 8 seat bets, 3 seat calls.

Turn is 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 seat now bets, 8 seat calls.

River is 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 seat bets, 8 seat calls.

3 seat announces "Queen" and shows Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for Queen high no flush. 8 seat looks at it quickly and looks mad and begins to muck but clearly flashes the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] I realize he thinks 3 seat has the Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] for some reason. Both the 3 seat and I see the flashed cards from across the table but he mucks them face down and the dealer pushes the pot to the 3 seat.

I am friendly with the 8 seat and like him a whole lot better than the 3 seat, so I feel a bit bad for him. I watch 3 seat to see if he is going to say anything but he begins stacking and I quietly say to him "you're gonna take that that way?" And he sorta gives me a dirty look and shrugs and I shake my head and say nothing more.

Anyone handle this differently?

-DeathDonkey

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

Speak up faster or don't speak up at all. Once the cards hit the muck, I'm not saying anything - although I would shoot a look at the 3 seat probably.

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

I've pointed out incorrect dealer decisions when the players turned their cards face up, but I think the player has to show his cards in order to get the deus ex pokina.

If I'm in Seat 8, I'm going to confirm with the dealer that Seat 3 does indeed have the queen-high flush. That's my responsibility as the holder of my hand -- if I muck a winner because I read someone's hole cards wrong, that's my fault. Period. If he gives it back, that's not "right", it's just magnanimity on his part.

If I'm in Seat 3, my action probably depends on my status. I'f I'm playing at a soft table, and I'm ahead, and the mood at the table is favorable, I'd probably write off the hand. I'll get it back, and the goodwill gesture is more likely to loosen players than to tighten them up. On the other hand, if I'm in the middle of a downswing, or Seat 8 has been acting like a jerk, then I might keep it.

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

My general rule in the cardroom is not to get involved in discussion unless I'm involved in the hand. If there's a dispute between two players (or something like what happened to you), I leave it to the dealer/floorman to officiate, and for the players to defend themselves. As much as it feels wrong to let injustice go unnoticed, it just isn't your place to get involved.

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

a lot of it would depend on how he said queen --- it seems you would be able to tell if said to sound like the flush or just queen high


not being in the hand or even "at" the table yet would have somethign to do with it also

but if he said queen and opened his hand on the table and the other player mucked, then it would appear to be his own fault

-- i was a little to late to say anthing also, once the hands are in the muck and the other player has the pot


if the player with qj [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] saw the other players hand i do not think that he handled the situation properly

cheers

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

Ive been in this situation. A nice loud 'HOLD ON' is in order, otherwise its over before you know it.

The guy was shooting an angle, So are the mucked cards still live?

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

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Ive been in this situation. A nice loud 'HOLD ON' is in order, otherwise its over before you know it.

The guy was shooting an angle, So are the mucked cards still live?

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No one was shooting an angle here. One guy clearly mucked his cards. End of story. Reading the board is a poker skill as well. If I was the OP, I would have mentioned it after the pot was pushed, "Why did you muck the winning hand?"

True story: My friend and I are playing 3/6 at local B&M. He has Kx, board is K88x8 (3 clubs). He calls a bet on the river. Bettor flashes him 2 clubs and my friend throws his hand away. After the pot is pushed, I ask him "You didn't even have a pair?" He responds, "Yeah, i had a King." "Dude, you just threw away a winning hand." This was a hand he was entitled to showdown because he called the last bet, but because he's a donk and can't read the board threw away the winner.

No one shot an angle here, the guy was just being a donk.

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

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Anyone handle this differently?


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No.

He didn't table his cards. It's his own fault for losing this pot.

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Both are experienced players

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One of them doesn't seem to fit this description.

b

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

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Speak up faster or don't speak up at all. Once the cards hit the muck, I'm not saying anything - although I would shoot a look at the 3 seat probably.

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OP isn't in the hand plus it's not his hand to protect. He shouldn't speak up at all.

b

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

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if the player with qj saw the other players hand i do not think that he handled the situation properly

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How exactly is he supposed to handle it.

The hand doesn't end until the pot is pushed. If some idiot wants to muck the winner, and I've been that idiot before, screw him. That's why you table your hand and let the 'cardspeak'.

b

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

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A nice loud 'HOLD ON' is in order

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Who is saying 'hold on'? Only the player with the AJ should be saying that. Anyone else deserves to get 'Caponed'.

b

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

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I would have mentioned it after the pot was pushed, "Why did you muck the winning hand?"

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I agree with this. AFTER the hand say something.

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No one shot an angle here, the guy was just being a donk.

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It was likely a small angle. But how hard is it to table your hand? Or actually read the hand face up? Showdown is the easiest street to play, isn't it?

b

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

[ QUOTE ]
No one was shooting an angle here. One guy clearly mucked his cards. End of story. Reading the board is a poker skill as well. If I was the OP, I would have mentioned it after the pot was pushed, "Why did you muck the winning hand?"

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This only leads to hard feelings, don't mention that he threw away a winner.

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No one was shooting an angle here. One guy clearly mucked his cards. End of story. Reading the board is a poker skill as well. If I was the OP, I would have mentioned it after the pot was pushed, "Why did you muck the winning hand?"

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This only leads to hard feelings, don't mention that he threw away a winner.

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It also leads to a very important lesson.

b

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

I personally think the dealer is at fault here. It is his job to announce the hand. When the guy turns over the QJ, the dealer should take the cards, put them in the middle, push up the 3 other cards on the board (AKx) and announce 'AKQJ high'. This way, if the other player is attentive at all, he may realize that there is no flush.

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

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the dealer should take the cards, put them in the middle, push up the 3 other cards on the board (AKx) and announce 'AKQJ high'

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This is incorrect. THe ONLY time a delaer should try to take a player's cards is to muck them. A player should never let a dealer have his cards until he sees he is beat or has the pot.

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

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This is incorrect. THe ONLY time a delaer should try to take a player's cards is to muck them. A player should never let a dealer have his cards until he sees he is beat or has the pot.

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I don't disagree with that, but is it correct for the dealer to announce the putative winning hand? While I wouldn't go so far as to say it was the dealer's fault, the situation could possibly have been avoided if the dealer announced "Queen high." ('AKQJ high', though technically correct, strikes me as overkill; no one refers to their hold 'em hand that way.)

Just wondered, since Randy always seems to be one of the more informed posters on this forum.

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

[ QUOTE ]
but is it correct for the dealer to announce the putative winning hand? While I wouldn't go so far as to say it was the dealer's fault, the situation could possibly have been avoided if the dealer announced "Queen high." ('AKQJ high', though technically correct, strikes me as overkill; no one refers to their hold 'em hand that way.)

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THis really depns on the limit. I am playing too many hands to go back to the OP, but in smaller games the dealer should announce the hnad "queen high" in bigger games the delaer should be quiet and deal. What consitutes a bigger game would vary by market.

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

One player to a hand please.

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

What an [censored].

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

Unless he tables his hand, you shouldn't say anything. If he put his cards faceup on the table and the dealer miscalled his hand, then you should say something.

Since he didn't want the table to see what he was playing by not showing the cards faceup, he forfeited any right to the pot. I would be mad if someone pointed this out to him if he didn't table his hand. I think you did the right thing by not saying anything.

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

This is an obvious one player to a hand thing. If he does not table his hand and mucks he loses. I do not lose sleep over it. One night I was playing and my buddy had A6 and some other guy had A7, the other guy tabled it but the kicker didn't play, my buddy showed the hand to the dealer and mucked. I saw the hand, the dealer saw the hand, but my friend never showed it down and it was not our place to tell him his hand was good.

If you cannot read the board you do not need to get the pot.

I have done it before and I would not want somebody to tell me how stupid I was before I mucked. If I am too dumb to read the cards and I should lose the pot. I have been lucky and misread the board and showed my hand and been rewarded the pot, I was so suprised that I was getting a pot shipped to me that I tipped the dealer a lot more than I should have. :P

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

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Unless he tables his hand, you shouldn't say anything. If he put his cards faceup on the table and the dealer miscalled his hand, then you should say something.



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Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

[ QUOTE ]
This situation occurred as I just sat down in a 10/20 at my local casino. I took the 4 seat and it was one of the first hands I saw at the table, I was not involved in the hand. The 8 seat raised and the 3 seat (on my immediate right) called. Both are experienced players and I know them both and am friendly with both etc.

Flop was something like A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 seat checks, 8 seat bets, 3 seat calls.

Turn is 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 seat now bets, 8 seat calls.

River is 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 seat bets, 8 seat calls.

3 seat announces "Queen" and shows Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for Queen high no flush. 8 seat looks at it quickly and looks mad and begins to muck but clearly flashes the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] I realize he thinks 3 seat has the Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] for some reason. Both the 3 seat and I see the flashed cards from across the table but he mucks them face down and the dealer pushes the pot to the 3 seat.

I am friendly with the 8 seat and like him a whole lot better than the 3 seat, so I feel a bit bad for him. I watch 3 seat to see if he is going to say anything but he begins stacking and I quietly say to him "you're gonna take that that way?" And he sorta gives me a dirty look and shrugs and I shake my head and say nothing more.

Anyone handle this differently?

-DeathDonkey

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The way i see things if you dont have cards you should STFU! Seat 8 misread his oppenents hand, the oppenent did nothing unethical, Seat 3 mucked its over.

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

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Unless he tables his hand, you shouldn't say anything. If he put his cards faceup on the table and the dealer miscalled his hand, then you should say something.



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Yes, this happened in an Omaha hi / low game I was playing the other day. Guy called straight as he tabled his hand, and the opponent showed down a higher straight. As the dealer was starting to muck the "losing" hand, I piped up because he had two baby diamonds for a flush. I kind of felt bad "taking" the pot from the guy with the higher straight, but it's not his pot to take, and I feel it's anybody's responsibility to make sure the winning hand gets the pot, as long as it's tabled.

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

Once tabled, it is primarily the dealer's responsibility for calling the hand. If the dealer gets it wrong, it is up to the other players to point this out immediately.

It is the player's responsibility to table his cards. Failing to do so means he gets no protection and his hand is dead.

I won one of my biggest pots at the end of a 12 hour session, when I angrily mucked my "losing" set face up. I didn't notice that the fourth club that hit the river also paired the board. Had I flashed my set to the other player, then mucked face down, I would not be entitled to the pot.

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

Depends on how fast the guy with the J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] went through the flash/muck/realize process.

If a guy flashes his hand to the people around him as he folds (which I hate, BTW, even when I'm one of the guys being flashed. Though I hate it less then because of the free info) and he has the winner, I'm going to point it out if I see it. I had this happen when a guy was flashing/staring at a straight flush that he didn't see, disgusted at losing to a K-high flush from a donkey.

I don't care if I'm in the hand or not, it's in the best interest of the game in general for the best/right hand to win the pot, and I'll do that for anyone so it's not like I'm playing favorites. Likewise, if some clown is flashing his hand before a fold, I'll tell anyone that asks what it was. If the flasher gets pissed, he can stop flashing and showing everyone how he can make the "tough fold" or how he had the "best hand" and has to fold it because the "fish" sucked out on him again.

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

I was wondering about this.

I was playing a Baby Omaha game a couple months ago, and saw the low pot awarded to the wrong guy. Cards were tabled, and clueless dealer and involved players didn't see the proper low because it was a low board with lots of counterfeiting in both hands. Since I wasn't in the hand, I took the STFU approach and let it go.

Still, I've been wondering what I really should have done.

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

I always hate to see someone win a pot with a losing hand, but at the same time why can't people just pay attention? I would never let a pot go unless I clearly saw both of my opponets hole cards or asked the dealer what he had.

At the start of the thread I believe you said both of these players were experienced. I would think this is pretty much inexcusable for someone to let a pot go that easily.

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

I don't understand how people could do that either. But then, I can't understand how someone calls 3 cold on the flop with T5o on a board of AK7, and I've seen it so who knows?

I did the opposite once, where I had KQ [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and another guy had KQo. Flop came ATx with two [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], we hit the J on the turn and went raise happy. The river was a 3rd diamond, but by now I'd forgotten I had diamonds because I was in "we both have KQ and are chopping" mode, so I just call his river raise of my bet and say "I think we've got the same hand".

I flip over my flush, the dealer calls it and I feel like ass for telling the guy were going to chop. Sure, I saved him some $$ and I was freerolling from the flop, but I still felt like a donkey for forgetting I had diamonds.

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

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Ive been in this situation. A nice loud 'HOLD ON' is in order, otherwise its over before you know it.

The guy was shooting an angle, So are the mucked cards still live?

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Not only is a "HOLD ON" not in order, it would be really uncalled for to speak up like that.

GoT

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

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if the player with qj saw the other players hand i do not think that he handled the situation properly

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How exactly is he supposed to handle it.

The hand doesn't end until the pot is pushed. If some idiot wants to muck the winner, and I've been that idiot before, screw him. That's why you table your hand and let the 'cardspeak'.

b

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he's not an idiot, the guy said "queen"... 8-seat is hoping the other guy doesn't have the queen of clubs, it's the only card he is worried about. then at showdown, the guy says "queen" -- not "queen high", just "queen"; aka the word the 8-seat has been repeating in his head the last 5 minutes. disappointed, he mucks cuz a q-high flush beats a j-high flush. the dealer should have said "q-high" or "q-high no flush" out loud.

the 3-seat is an angle shooter, a cheater, and a scumbag. he should be shot in the face for disgracing the game.

i would have spoken up immediately, my business or not. especially if i liked the 8-seat better [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

Once the cards are face up on the table, then the cards speak and it is okay to correct a dealer error.

This entire discussion revolves around the difference between seeing someone's hole cards as they are mucked and cards that are shown down face up on the table.

If I accidently see someone else's cards and He mucks his hand, it is against the rules (ONE PLAYER TO A HAND) for me to tell him how to play his hand.

If both hands are shown down face up then the CARDS SPEAK rule applies.

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was wondering about this.

I was playing a Baby Omaha game a couple months ago, and saw the low pot awarded to the wrong guy. Cards were tabled, and clueless dealer and involved players didn't see the proper low because it was a low board with lots of counterfeiting in both hands. Since I wasn't in the hand, I took the STFU approach and let it go.

Still, I've been wondering what I really should have done.

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Once the hands are tabled, now you can speak about the hand even if you're not involved at that point. Anyone who gets pissed at you for speaking up at that point is an idiot.

Dealers are human and make mistakes. In these cases, it's up to the players to protect the integrity of the game if possible.

b

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

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Depends on how fast the guy with the J went through the flash/muck/realize process

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No it shouldn't. It depends on whether he tables his hand.

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and he has the winner, I'm going to point it out if I see it. I don't care if I'm in the hand or not, it's in the best interest of the game in general for the best/right hand to win the pot

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Even though you'd be clearly violating one of the main rules in the cardroom? wow. Do that 2 or 3 times, I'm sure some would try and get you tossed out. I'd call the floor on the first time if you tried to justify it. That's not in the best interest of the game. 1 player to a hand, please.

b

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

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Cards were tabled, and clueless dealer and involved players didn't see the proper low because it was a low board with lots of counterfeiting in both hands. Since I wasn't in the hand, I took the STFU approach and let it go.

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I think that you had a responsibility to speak up.

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

It's not the 3-seat guy's fault the 8 seat guy can't just table his hand. Much less, actually read a hand that's tabled.

b

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was wondering about this.

I was playing a Baby Omaha game a couple months ago, and saw the low pot awarded to the wrong guy. Cards were tabled, and clueless dealer and involved players didn't see the proper low because it was a low board with lots of counterfeiting in both hands. Since I wasn't in the hand, I took the STFU approach and let it go.

Still, I've been wondering what I really should have done.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once the hands are tabled, now you can speak about the hand even if you're not involved at that point. Anyone who gets pissed at you for speaking up at that point is an idiot.

Dealers are human and make mistakes. In these cases, it's up to the players to protect the integrity of the game if possible.

b

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By the way, if you play Omaha live, expect to do this at least once a session. Damn game is confusing enough and I know what I'm doing.

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

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Damn game is confusing enough and I know what I'm doing.

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It's one reason I don't play it. I get lost in my hand. I know lots of dealers hate it when they first start dealing it. I remember 1 new dealer who was dealing it. She was having a hard time but trying. Then some old idiot starts bellowing how the room oughtta get a dealer that can deal it right, totally humiliating her. Not that he couldn't have helped her out at all. No, he'd rather make a scene.

I really felt for her on that one. She was a terrible dealer for awhile. Including lack of effort and all(though not the incident above). I used to contemplate leaving for her down she was so bad. But now she's much improved. I'd easily give her the most improved award last year. She's come a long way. Thank god.

b

Re: Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cards were tabled, and clueless dealer and involved players didn't see the proper low because it was a low board with lots of counterfeiting in both hands. Since I wasn't in the hand, I took the STFU approach and let it go.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that you had a responsibility to speak up.

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Then if there's a next time, I'll speak up.

Thanks.