There\'s a third time for everything
 

I mucked KK preflop for the third time. Lucky Chances $20-40 NLHE. Sometimes at 10am it's like reading and coffee and shoptalk hour. Other times, it is kazZAM out of the gate and they're off and it's make it 200 call call call, flop comes check, check, bet 800, call 800, checkraise all in 3000 fold, call, shityougotme ... CHIPS!!

It didn't slow down much. It was that kind of line up. Hours later, everyone had danced but me. But I was totally fine just watching. I had picked up some smallerish pots here and there, and I felt involved, but I really didn't care if I ever played a hand deep. This was the funnest I'd ever had just watching players play.

So here comes pocket kings. My stack was 3K. I was UTG and I limped for $40. It was folded to one of the three main raisers. He made it $200. His stack was 4K. Folded to the button, who was also one of the raisers. He went all in for 3K. The blinds folded. And I'm like.

I looked at the guy who had made it $200, and it was sort of like he gave me one of these "If you call I'll call" look deals.

I don't know what I was thinking about. There was way too many cards to come for me to be just sticking my whole stack out there without the okeedokes. Maybe it was inertia. Or maybe it's a style thing. I'm not going to *CALL* three thousand out of nowhere into a nothing pot without the nuts. I'm just not. Besides, I can still get good ROI on these chips later on if I just keep my head. Nobody is going anywhere.

ssshhhhfft

The 200 guy hemhawed and folded face up, QJ suited. He WAS going to call if I called! The winner didn't show.

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

Thats tough, I've only folded KK preflop once and it was super tough.

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

caclalcalcalcalcalclalalcall

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

tommy knows he's going to be blasted for this fold, so let me be the first to say..

that's a really awful fold

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

I'm tempted to write a Tommy post for my next hand. I think he just likes writing and doesn't care what people say about his play.

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

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I'm not going to *CALL* three thousand out of nowhere into a nothing pot without the nuts.

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The pot is $3300, far from nothing. If you haven't seen this main raiser go all-in for a huge amount preflop with AA then you have to make this call. This looks more like a smaller pocket pair and most likely AK type hand.

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

wow. c'mon, man.

first off, let me say that i've never folded KK preflop with a 75bb stack, and i probably never will. but there's more here.

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There was way too many cards to come for me to be just sticking my whole stack out there without the okeedokes. Maybe it was inertia. Or maybe it's a style thing. I'm not going to *CALL* three thousand out of nowhere into a nothing pot without the nuts. I'm just not.

[/ QUOTE ]
i usually like your posts a lot, tommy, because you take a different perspective, and you give us READS on your opponents, and you base your actions and decisions on those reads. if you had done that here, if you had told us that the player who pushed is someone who's scared to play postflop poker, who's a particularly weak-tight rock, or you somehow picked up that he was playing with his case $3k, and THAT's why you made this fold, then at least it makes some semblance of sense.

but to say, "I'm not going to *CALL* three thousand out of nowhere into a nothing pot without the nuts" is not only ludicrous, it's FACTUALLY WRONG.

there's already $3300 in the pot.

and one of the reads you DID give us was that the first raiser was going to call if you did, so you will likely be getting over $6000 for your $3k call. you also told us this game was playing in warp-speed at the time, and that these two players were among the guys driving it. how do you think KK stacks up against their hand ranges?

lastly,

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I can still get good ROI on these chips later on if I just keep my head. Nobody is going anywhere.

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if you lose, buy more chips. like you said, nobody's going anywhere. but you know this. so why are you saying things like the quote above?

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

maybe because Tommy likes to be a martyr?

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

[ QUOTE ]
caclalcalcalcalcalclalalcall

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, but I want to add
CALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALL
CALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALL
CALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALL
CALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALLCALL

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

I still think Tommy is just a guy that keeps making his hands more and more ludricous just to see how absurd a play he can post and STILL have people justifying it.

This one might be the one that went to far though. Hopefully some people will argue that his fold was correct. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

I have a hard time believing you actually played the hand this way.

If you did, I think it's more likely that you got very excited about the prospect of folding KK preflop and then posting about it, then that you actually thought it was the right play.

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

[ QUOTE ]
Besides, I can still get good ROI on these chips later on if I just keep my head. Nobody is going anywhere.



[/ QUOTE ]


your too intelligent to actually believe this makes sense.

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

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I still think Tommy is just a guy that keeps making his hands more and more ludricous just to see how absurd a play he can post and STILL have people justifying it.

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I've thought about this too. Either this is true, or he's been doing lots of drugs lately. Tommy; can you post some interesting concepts instead of just insane folds?

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

Wow, I almost can't beleive what I am reading. You have to now some one pretty well to lay down kk preflop. Either there is more to the story. Or tommy made one of the worst folds of his poker playing life!
If Im in that situation(me having AA) I make 800 to go, and then baring some kind of disaster flop I push on the flop. This is assuming the game is rammin and jammin like tommy says.

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

weak-tight is the new cool!

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

4-1 fav isnt good enough for you?

you must be worth that ridiculous coaching fee for sure!

what a sap

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

wow.

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

"Tommy; can you post some interesting concepts instead of just insane folds?"

I think insane folds are an interesting concept.

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Tommy; can you post some interesting concepts instead of just insane folds?"

I think insane folds are an interesting concept.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not when you're probably a big effing favorite.

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

From a guy who has folded aces preflop does this really surprise anyone?
This one has more merit, but I dont see folding this to an aggro player making a move on another aggro

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

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From a guy who has folded aces preflop does this really surprise anyone?

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hey don't go there buddy, that was a great story.

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

the big idea here is that tommy's brand of poker is more read-based than anything I, or you, have ever played. In a spot like this in my head, I might think in my head "hmm he may have AA but there is no chance I can fold in this spot". In tommy's head, if he thinks the guy has AA, he folds.

I do agree that Tommy's line about 'oh the chips will be there later' is dumb. That is certainly not justification for any fold in a cash game, assuming you are properly rolled and tommy is.

-Jason

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

He folded aces for different reasons. People play poker for different reasons than to maximize EV.

-Jason

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

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From a guy who has folded aces preflop does this really surprise anyone?

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hey don't go there buddy, that was a great story.

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Linky?

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

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He folded aces for different reasons. People play poker for different reasons than to maximize EV.

-Jason

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Like that time you folded kings full to that KGB wanna-be.

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

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From a guy who has folded aces preflop does this really surprise anyone?

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hey don't go there buddy, that was a great story.

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Linky?

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The worst play ever

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

That was too easy.

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Tommy; can you post some interesting concepts instead of just insane folds?"

I think insane folds are an interesting concept.

[/ QUOTE ]

mmmm ok. That's true (they are an interesting concept). I guess i want to see why you made them too; and you are either making an awful fold here (w/ the KK) or leaving out tons of information. While i dont need to see/hear this information (especially if its a specific tell live) I'd like to know its there so that I don't think your crazy. Also your line about "waiting for a better spot" is wayyy wayyy off base. I'd assume you realize this if only from reading a lot of 2+2. You should maximize every EV edge you have in a cash game supposing you are properly bankrolled (and I'd tend to believe you definitely are).

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

[ QUOTE ]
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From a guy who has folded aces preflop does this really surprise anyone?

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hey don't go there buddy, that was a great story.

[/ QUOTE ]

Linky?

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The worst play ever

[/ QUOTE ]

How elegantly written. I enjoyed that.

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

"You should maximize every EV edge you have in a cash game..."

That is a meaningless sentence to me because I am unable to know the EV's of my decisions.

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

Tommy:

What sort of ROI are you looking for on those chips?

In a game where there are constant $200 preflop raises, you're going to have to take gambles now and again; you can't wait for aces.

I'm as nitty as they get in this forum and I would jump at the chance to put my 3K on the line here.

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

[ QUOTE ]

I'm as nitty as they get in this forum and I would jump at the chance to put my 3K on the line here.

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That's true, Tommy, he is. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Your post seems to indicate that you had no specific read that this guy was exceptionally strong; you just said you weren't calling without the nuts when a guy bet 3000 into a nothing pot. That's not good enough, and in terms of the info you provided, this is a spot where I'd be very inclined to make that type of call, which I also would absolutely hate to make in general.

In fact, I laid down KK pre-flop to one reraise in the Bellagio 25/50 game (I'd link the post, but I can't find it just now). In that hand, I opened UTG for 200 in a 10-handed game, got a caller, and then a very good player pushed about 6000 into the pot. I knew that the good player viewed me as very tight, and I figured he "knew" I had a big hand, just hoped I had KK, and pushed his AA. You could make the argument that he could be pushing there with any ace, thinking that someone so tight would fold everything but AA, but I disagree. I just don't think people are willing to bank on other people laying down Kings before the flop (riverboatking's awesome bluff with A4 a while back notwithstanding). This is even more true when you're dealing with a relative stranger.

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

[ QUOTE ]
He folded aces for different reasons. People play poker for different reasons than to maximize EV.

-Jason

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This is like in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, when they're riding in the glass elevator and there's all sorts of random stuff going on around them. The TV kid says, "why is everything here so pointless?"

Charlie says, "It doesn't have to have a point, it's candy."

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

[ QUOTE ]
"You should maximize every EV edge you have in a cash game..."

That is a meaningless sentence to me because I am unable to know the EV's of my decisions.

[/ QUOTE ]

true tommy, very true.

but you do know ranges. you can estimate whether the EV is >0 fairly well given your experience. + you knew the other guy would call if you called, giving you info and better odds to make up for some of the variance you have to take to put in 3k.

further, ive read you say that you can't underplay a hand one round and then fold the next round to action b/c nobody can put you on that hand.

you limped. agro raised. another agro 3 bet all in that initial agro raiser. there's about 3.2k in the pot. even without the other player calling, do you expect to win about 50% of the time by the river? 33% if the other one called, which you knew he would. i trust your reads.

based on this information, we can estimate, not know, our expectation. did you have another 3k on you?

would this decision, if it cost you 3k this time, affect your future play from those players that "aren't going anywhere?" (gain you action probably b/c you finally put money in and dont have to expose yoru hand if you lose, but thats pretty irrelavent based on your description of these folks) will you play worse if you lost?

if you answer "yes" "yes" "no" then i vote call. im there for money.

Barron

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

That post by riverboatking literally changed my poker life.

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

Can i get a link?

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

Riase preflop. Since you didn't, CALL! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not going to *CALL* three thousand out of nowhere into a nothing pot without the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot is $3300, far from nothing. If you haven't seen this main raiser go all-in for a huge amount preflop with AA then you have to make this call. This looks more like a smaller pocket pair and most likely AK type hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah that it what it looks like but I have been completely pimp slapped by this same play when a guy moves all in p flop. Both times it's happened to me at the 2k games on party and both times the guy had Aces. Without a really good read i think it's an easy fold

Re: There\'s a third time for everything
 

Tommy, I think you are great. Your posts are well-written and entertain me.

Regardless of that, this is a boring thread. And anyone trying to justify this play needs to pull their finger out of their ass.