200/400 hand 1
 

Hey all, since I basically just doubled the amount of live hours I've put in during the past 2 weeks I figured I'd post a few hands and see if you all think I'm adjusting okay. So here's hand 1 -

John D'agostino or whatever his last name is raises in the cutoff and I defend Ah2d so we take a headsup flop. The flop is Ks7s7d. I check, he bets, I call.

The turn is a 2s. I check. Thoughts?
-James

EDIT: I was planning to check-raise the turn.

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

I would usually just call down here, but I'm probably not fancy enough.

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

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EDIT: I was planning to check-raise the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]before or after you caught the duece?

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

Unless the card was a T-Q.
-James

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

you should reraise that hand some of time when it seems right to defend with it.

once the 2 comes your best bet is to check-call to showdown.

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

I think you're the kinda ballzy blind defender, that if played correctly, makes mucha $$.

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

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you should reraise that hand some of time when it seems right to defend with it.

once the 2 comes your best bet is to check-call to showdown.

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Interesting, because I think that this type of hand is the worst type to three-bet. I'll rarely have a big draw that can stand the type of heat that he'll likely put to me once I "define" my hand by three-betting, and when I do make a decent hand it will be easy to put me on it(if an ace flops, for instance). I think I'd rather occasionally three-bet 87s than A2o - because calling allows me to represent so many more hands postflop.

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

It seems to me like if you're going to be taking ace high to showdown with any frequency against him, then you might as well three-bet it, at least occasionally. No?

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

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It seems to me like if you're going to be taking ace high to showdown with any frequency against him, then you might as well three-bet it, at least occasionally. No?

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This doesnt make any sense to me.

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

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It seems to me like if you're going to be taking ace high to showdown with any frequency against him, then you might as well three-bet it, at least occasionally. No?

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This doesnt make any sense to me.

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Build a bigger pot to make calling down more correct is what I guess he's saying.

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

good thinking. what i shouldve said was:

"you should reraise any hand some of time when it seems right to defend with it."

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

Seems pretty sketchy to me...check calling that flop sounds warning bells off in my head - so he won't bother betting with something like Q9 with one spade, or Ax with a spade, instead he'll take his free draw because he is good enough to realize you're probably check raising here.
-let me clarify, either you plan on check raising or seeing a cheap showdown - so those hands you have beat won't bother following through.

I like your plan if the turn wasn't a spade or a 2, which in some ways may bind you to a showdown here, no?
-is he aggressive enough to 3bet semibluff with something like AT w/the As?
What was your plan if 3bet?

I agree with your flatcall preflop w/ Axo btw. No question there.

-DrG

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

My thoughts the same so far. I keep seeing hands I'd play the same way at limits higher than I play by better (higher limit) players and ask my self wtf.

It's either the bills of a family, inability to avoid tilt or just plain out of my league. Who knows, who cares.

Maybe SA125 should ask Tommy.

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

hey james,

i think once you catch the deuce you'd be better off check calling it down.

chris

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

Really Chris? Because I think this leaves me vulnerable to be value bet by a better hand and gives me no chance to fold that same better hand. On a board like this I think it's highly plausible he folds a pair with a spade(if no spade comes on the river), MAYBE a king(he has definitely folded top pair during this session to a player with an image similar to mine). I dunno, I think it's close between cr and check call.
-James

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

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It seems to me like if you're going to be taking ace high to showdown with any frequency against him, then you might as well three-bet it, at least occasionally. No?

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This doesnt make any sense to me.

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Build a bigger pot to make calling down more correct is what I guess he's saying.

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this statement is a huge logical fallacy....

do you pump your gutshots on the flop so that you can call on the turn??????

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

clearly you're planning to knock him off a better hand with the check-raise on the turn, as you'd just check call if you figured he had a worse hand (i think?), so what is the range of hands you think he would fold here?

If it is true that he would fold enough hands to make this play +EV (essentially 2.5BB on a bluff to win 3.75, 3.5 to win 4.75 if you fire on the river and expect a fold) then wouldn't he be playing a very explotable game? if an opponent that often folds given a preflop raise isn't almost correct to auto check raise the turn on a non-scray board?

do you do that?

if not (and i assume you don't) what makes this situation particularly appealing to try to knock him off a better hand?

I know this is mid/high and the posters who this is aimed at get all this stuff intuitevely, but i'm just having a great deal of difficulty figuring out what your logic is in calling with A2 in the blind and not any two if this is the line you'll take, (assuming again that you're not going to the river unimproved with a2 very often).

<font color="red"> To me it seems as though if this actually works the cards don't matter, and because of this i wouldn't be folding enough for this to work on me. </font>

That's the way i think about a lot of situations and it's been very useful but the higher i go the more a non-exploitable strategy seems to fall by the way side (which yet again seems counter intuitive to me as i would assume opponents would be better at taking shots/randomizing unexpectedly)

Edit: i would really like to hear some of the better players here thoughts on the statement in red.

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

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Really Chris? Because I think this leaves me vulnerable to be value bet by a better hand and gives me no chance to fold that same better hand. On a board like this I think it's highly plausible he folds a pair with a spade(if no spade comes on the river), MAYBE a king(he has definitely folded top pair during this session to a player with an image similar to mine). I dunno, I think it's close between cr and check call.
-James

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Do people actually fold pairs in Blind Defense scenarios at 200-400

I think if he has any kind of made hand, especially one he bets the turn with, are hands he's going to SD with.

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

a2 has a significant amount of showdown value....

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

[ QUOTE ]
Really Chris? Because I think this leaves me vulnerable to be value bet by a better hand and gives me no chance to fold that same better hand. On a board like this I think it's highly plausible he folds a pair with a spade(if no spade comes on the river), MAYBE a king(he has definitely folded top pair during this session to a player with an image similar to mine). I dunno, I think it's close between cr and check call.
-James

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while i agree that this line leaves you vurnurable to being value bet to death, it also HAS to leave some room for him bluffing unprofitably as well.

also its been my experience in these games that it is very difficult to get these guys to fold better hands in these spots, which makes checkraising less valuable than you'd think.

chris

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

If you're checkraising the turn it's for value. I dunno what you saw or think you saw JDags do but I'm almost certain he isn't folding pairs to you on this board.

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

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It seems to me like if you're going to be taking ace high to showdown with any frequency against him, then you might as well three-bet it, at least occasionally. No?

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesnt make any sense to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Build a bigger pot to make calling down more correct is what I guess he's saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

this statement is a huge logical fallacy....

do you pump your gutshots on the flop so that you can call on the turn??????

[/ QUOTE ]

barron vangor tooth does, even preflop...

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

a recent post

this has been proven many times before. it should not be hard to grasp (my sat scores were fairly low.)

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

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a recent post

this has been proven many times before. it should not be hard to grasp (my sat scores were fairly low.)

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NLSoldier's post was a joke based on Barron's article in the 2+2 magazine.

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

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a recent post

this has been proven many times before. it should not be hard to grasp (my sat scores were fairly low.)

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dude I was agreeing with you and making fun of barron. (maybe you didnt see this article )

thanks for the link though, I never saw the end of that thread.

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

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Really Chris? Because I think this leaves me vulnerable to be value bet by a better hand and gives me no chance to fold that same better hand. On a board like this I think it's highly plausible he folds a pair with a spade(if no spade comes on the river), MAYBE a king(he has definitely folded top pair during this session to a player with an image similar to mine). I dunno, I think it's close between cr and check call.
-James

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This can't be really how high limit "good" players play in blind battles.....I think this hand you should be CRing for value on the turn or calling down otherwise, or is the A-h calldown no good at these limits?

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

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a2 has a significant amount of showdown value....

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I wasn't saying anything about pumping the pot. I was saying that if A2 has 'significant' showdown value then it means that it does well against his hand range here. So why not 3-bet for value? I.e. the same reason why you 3-bet AK here.

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hey all, since I basically just doubled the amount of live hours I've put in during the past 2 weeks I figured I'd post a few hands and see if you all think I'm adjusting okay. So here's hand 1 -

John D'agostino or whatever his last name is raises in the cutoff and I defend Ah2d so we take a headsup flop. The flop is Ks7s7d. I check, he bets, I call.

The turn is a 2s. I check. Thoughts?
-James

EDIT: I was planning to check-raise the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

bet the turn james.

if you check and a spade comes bet.

if you check and almost any other card comes after he checks behind bet for value.

if a lone ace falls id like to c'r but i think either a bet or check call is best

if you decided to bet the turn instead, call down a raise and river bet.

A2 here now has a good deal of showdown value. get there.

at this limit i think its hard for people to find folds on boards like that with any pair. period. so your check planning to raise i assume is plan to charge him 2 bets for his flush draw and then check the end and let him bluff b/c after the turn c'r he folds nothing you beat and calls with nothing you beat on the river but may bluff the hands he'd call the turn c'r with.

-Barron

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

I am surprised no on donks this turn. That is my default in this situation. It looks fishy enough that A high will usually always call down, and Q8 or whatever doesnt get a free card. Unless you think fold a small pair to the turn CR I dont really get that line.

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

I like a bet on the turn james.

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

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I wasn't saying anything about pumping the pot. I was saying that if A2 has 'significant' showdown value then it means that it does well against his hand range here. So why not 3-bet for value?

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Because 3-betting ensures you will either win a small pot, lose a small pot where you are unsure if you made the proper laydown, or lose a large pot. You're narrowing your hand range too much in a situation where you will only flop a "I'm sure I am going to showdown" hand &gt;20% of the time. Like James said, I'm much more inclined to 3bet with a 78s hand or even a QTo hand than with A2o.

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

This hit me on my way to sleep last night. I certainly don't agree with it at the moment, but I was wondering if an argument could be made for it.

Fold preflop.

Is A2o a "play it or go home" hand?

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

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This hit me on my way to sleep last night. I certainly don't agree with it at the moment, but I was wondering if an argument could be made for it.

Fold preflop.

Is A2o a "play it or go home" hand?

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no, its not. it depends on the player, how he's playing and how he views you. it is assumed james took these into acct and decided to play.

for the most part though, Ahigh here is good.

Barron

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

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no, its not. it depends on the player, how he's playing and how he views you. it is assumed james took these into acct and decided to play.

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Well, duh. What I'm trying to say is you're staring across the table at either a great or WC type player, raising from the cutoff (as opposed to the button).

I'd play it for sure, but i hear i have a big ego.

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

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no, its not. it depends on the player, how he's playing and how he views you. it is assumed james took these into acct and decided to play.

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Well, duh. What I'm trying to say is you're staring across the table at either a great or WC type player, raising from the cutoff (as opposed to the button).

I'd play it for sure, but i hear i have a big ego.

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its much more of a call than it is a fold b/c at these limits the button is slightly extended imo.

Barron

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

My default cutoff for defending a steal is A4o, the pip value actually does make a difference I belive. James plays pretty sweet post-flop, so the call is just fine as well.

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

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If you're checkraising the turn it's for value. I dunno what you saw or think you saw JDags do but I'm almost certain he isn't folding pairs to you on this board.

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yeah that was my reaction. he's going to fold a pair, on a paired board in button vs. BB??

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

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My default cutoff for defending a steal is A4o, the pip value actually does make a difference I belive. James plays pretty sweet post-flop, so the call is just fine as well.

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yea i guess i shoulda noted this in my response. i personally do not defend this.

ranks of kickers make a difference here more than most think.

benefits of defending in this spot though if i were james are multifold and can push it to a call more than fold even though thats the basic catagory these hands fall in for a player like james.

i personally toss it...

Barron

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

You are right here, Paluka. Checkraising is the worst thing you can do here against John, BTW. If you want to get tricky, then bet out.

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

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You are right here, Paluka. Checkraising is the worst thing you can do here against John, BTW. If you want to get tricky, then bet out.

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Is this from live experience with him or online experience? Because he was playing much differently(as far as what he was showing down) than he does online. At this point in playing, I don't think he viewed me as very tricky - and I am certain that he layed down *at least* top pair in a hand previous to this one against another player whom I think had an image similar to mine. The fact is, the board on the flop is so dry that against an unknown I think you almost have to give them credit for a hand or a draw. When the draw comes in on the turn, the gig is up. Since I am out of position, though, I think betting out is indeed superior to checking hoping to raise because there are a zillion cards I don't want to see on the river and this is the perfect card for him to take a free card with since it's a board where I'll almost always have something.
-James