my homework
 

here are a couple of hands my coach thought i should post.
hand one:
flop raiser is 53/10/1.4, so he looks to be pretty aggressive. anybody 3-bet the flop? obviously i whiffed on the turn. given the way the hand played, does anybody favor a turn donk over the c/r attempt? anybody attempt to c/r again on the river?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG folds, MP calls, CO folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, MP checks.

River: (5.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, MP folds.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB

hand two:
I'm really weak in the blinds. flop bettor is extremely loose/passive, but over a very small sample. he seems to have a little gambool in him postflop - his river aggression is 3 and his overall is like 1.3. somebody give me a better line.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Button folds, SB calls, Hero folds.

Turn: (3 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, SB calls.

River: (5 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, SB calls.

Final Pot: 7 BB

Re: my homework
 

not 3-betting the flop after a coldcall seems awfully lame. bottom two is a very vulnerable hand.

Re: my homework
 

i 3bet the flop in hand 1 and i bet the flop in hand 2

Re: my homework
 

your line in hand one is fine. the turn isn't getting checked around very often. i generally 3bet the flop, but i dont think it matters much

bet the flop in hand two

Re: my homework
 

I'm with everyone else on hand 1 with the flop 3bet.

Hand 2: I'm with you on this. If we bet out here with 3 opponents, we're going to be real hard pressed to bet again on the turn or the river if OOP. Seems like just spewing chips without getting to a showdown if we bet this flop. Check fold and go to the next hand.

Re: my homework
 

When you are posting PT numbers always tell us over how many hands.

Hand 1 i usually three bet the flop- if you're read is that he is aggressive i will often three bet the flop and then go for a turn c/r with a hand as strong as yours, but going for a straight up check raise isn't to bad. I would not try for a river c/r after missing the turn.

Hand 2 is very very weak- mid pair type hands with crap kickers are the reason the blinds are so hard to play. In general betting out or checking and making up your mind after watching the action are pretty close plays imo- and i like to mix them up. On this hand i wouold bet out as you only have one guy who put money in voluntarily and he limped on the button, so you should have the best hand a reasonable % of the time here.

Re: my homework
 

Hand 1, I would 3-bet the flop the majority of the time.

Hand 2, sometimes I like betting, sometimes I check and see how the action develops behind me. Here, I think betting is slightly better, with a poster and a button limper behind you.

Re: my homework
 

[ QUOTE ]
When you are posting PT numbers always tell us over how many hands.


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word.

53/10/1.4 is not "pretty aggressive" it's very loose/passive, and more generally, bad. You need a ton of hands before you start paying close attention to the aggro number. I do look at aggro stats but I am very hesitant to draw conclusions from them. If the number is very low or very high over 100+ hands then I pay attention. If it's average I usually ignore it.

/mc

Re: my homework
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When you are posting PT numbers always tell us over how many hands.


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word.

53/10/1.4 is not "pretty aggressive" it's very loose/passive, and more generally, bad.


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Those stats can be very aggressive. If he's playing more than half his hands, and just 20% of them for a raise, yet still betting and raising postflop more than he is calling, he's very aggressive. It could also mean that he folds a lot rather than calling.

Re: my homework
 

I'm with the others. 3-bet hand1, since you didn't, I would try for some sort of a raise on the turn.

hand2 I would lead the flop just about always.

Re: my homework
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

53/10/1.4 is not "pretty aggressive" it's very loose/passive, and more generally, bad.


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Those stats can be very aggressive.

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Yeah, maybe he's very passive pre-flop and very aggressive post-flop. I don't think it's all that likely. Since aggro stat numbers take so much longer to converge and are more ambiguous in general I take them with a grain of salt. I don't ignore them, but I give them less weight in my read.

I'm not going to look at someone with 53/10/1.4 and think "I can count on this guy to bet the turn."

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If he's playing more than half his hands, and just 20% of them for a raise,


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where do you get that number?

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...It could also mean that he folds a lot rather than calling.

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Yeah, I know. That's sort of my point.

/mc

Re: my homework
 

interpreting aggression numbers is not my strongsuit

Re: my homework
 

There's big disagreements on this aggression number because not only does the number converge incredibly slowly, but it can mean any number of different things and nobody's description is in any way always correct. People say such things as "an 80/10/1 is almost maniacal" or "an 80/10/.75 is superpassive, he's always got the nuts when he bets". You should stop putting such a huge amount of precedence on a number which has little meaning, and spend more attention to their playing habits. An 80/10/1 could just donkbet a lot of turns because he thinks they're on trash overcards. Whoopie.

Re: my homework
 

I'm just saying it's a mistake to see "1 aggr" and immediately assume passive. Just like it's a mistake to see 3 and immediately assume aggro.

The 20% number came from him playing 50% of his hands, and raising 10%. 20% of the hands he plays are for raises.

Re: my homework
 

This thread is a strong example of why you should not post future streets when you have a key decision on the flop. I personally think calling the flop raise and hoping to c/r the turn is fine b/c he's not checking it through very often but the way it looks on paper, going for the c/r on the turn looks awful. It would be interesting if you had posted the hand and your turn c/r had succeeded. How many people would still be advocating for a flop 3 bet if you trap the field for 2 bets on the turn?

Hand 1: I think you played it fine and arguments can be made to go either way. I will usually play it straitfoward and 3 bet the flop but I can definatly see taking your line, and I do prolly 25% of the time

Hand 2: I play it the same but my BB play sux

Re: my homework
 

[ QUOTE ]
This thread is a strong example of why you should not post future streets when you have a key decision on the flop. I personally think calling the flop raise and hoping to c/r the turn is fine b/c he's not checking it through very often but the way it looks on paper, going for the c/r on the turn looks awful. It would be interesting if you had posted the hand and your turn c/r had succeeded. How many people would still be advocating for a flop 3 bet if you trap the field for 2 bets on the turn?

Hand 1: I think you played it fine and arguments can be made to go either way. I will usually play it straitfoward and 3 bet the flop but I can definatly see taking your line, and I do prolly 25% of the time

Hand 2: I play it the same but my BB play sux

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I'd like to hear somebody else say something about this, because bottom twopair is a horribly vulnerable hand and 3-way I think not 3-betting this is absolutely atrocious. I don't care what happened on the turn.

Re: my homework
 

Just because a hand is vulnerable doesn't mean it shouldn't be slowplayed. A 3-bet here isn't forcing anybody out of the pot.

Re: my homework
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just because a hand is vulnerable doesn't mean it shouldn't be slowplayed. A 3-bet here isn't forcing anybody out of the pot.

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Sorry, I wasn't meaning I wanted to force anybody out. I meant we've got it 3-way and they're not folding, and there are lots of cards out we don't want to see.

Re: my homework
 

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there are lots of cards out we don't want to see.

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This is a reason to slowplay. If an A comes off you can check and fold quietly.

Re: my homework
 

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there are lots of cards out we don't want to see.

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This is a reason to slowplay. If an A comes off you can check and fold quietly.

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I was under the impression waiting until the turn like that was for supervulnerable hands like bottom twopair on a two-toned 89T board when you've got 89.

Re: my homework
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just saying it's a mistake to see "1 aggr" and immediately assume passive. Just like it's a mistake to see 3 and immediately assume aggro.

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Oh, I see the confusion. No, I definitely don't read an aggro rating of 1.4 as passive. I read it as reasonably aggro post-flop with a low degree of certainty.

Combined with pre-flop numbers like 53/10 which tell us, with a high degree of certainty, that he's very loose and fairly passive (pre-flop and therefore, quite possibly, post-flop), and I think it's sketchy to characterize this player as "pretty aggressive".


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The 20% number came from him playing 50% of his hands, and raising 10%. 20% of the hands he plays are for raises.

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Gotcha.

/mc

Re: my homework
 

[ QUOTE ]
not 3-betting the flop after a coldcall seems awfully lame. bottom two is a very vulnerable hand.

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Not to mention the fact you only flop 2 pair once every 49 flops and the BB has to have one of your cards to have a better two pair, or else a set. If you don't push your monsters in this situation, you aren't going to get any fold equity in the same situations with weaker holdings.