interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

stacks: me ~10K villian ~7K
relevant reads: villian is aggressive but good, solid player, but not afraid to make moves.

villian's read of me: views me as a thinking player but definately LAG. knows i'm more then capable of betting w/air if i sense weakness. also i believe he has picked up on the fact that i like to overbet strong hands on the river. (for LAPOKER17 this is karga).

i limp after one limper w/red JJ.
two or three limpers and he checks his BB.

flop comes 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

checked to me i pot it for ~ $260.
villian is only caller.

turn is 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

check, check.

river is 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

villian checks i bet $700
he checkraises me to $2200.

thoughts?

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

Since there are a bunch of limpers and he checks his option in the BB and doesn't go nuts on the flop or turn, I think we can rule out a big pair like AA KK or QQ. I also don't think a decent player would make this move with a 10 because he will only get called by a hand that beats him. Therefore, I believe the two hands that are possible are pure bluff or the 3. now we have to figure out which one he has.

Since you mention that he has noticed that you like to overbet pots on the river with strong hands, and while you didn't over bet the pot, you put in a good chunk of it (about 90%), he has to put you on a hand. I think if he had the 3 he would've played it differently on the river such as betting out. There is 2680 in the pot and it costs you 1500 to see it, so you are getting a little bit less than 2 to 1. I think that's about right for a call here.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

How does just checking behind compare to betting that river? Are there many worse hands that check-call you there? I guess tens, sixes and small pocket pairs might. But I wonder if a lot of the time worse hands will either check-fold or check-raise and better hands either check-call or check-raise.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

Never check that hand. You are a LAG player and people will never give you respect for limping JJ. MAybe he has something liek 6T and thinks he just got the edge on you. Of course he could easily have the 3, but I cant see a fold on the river ever unless he check raised you allin. Pay this off, you're good 60% of the time.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

since "i" bet i did not think he had the quads, and quads usually aren't hard to spot. so i call. what did he have?

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

I'm biased because villain is my best friend in poker, and I think he's a pretty sick player, but I still don't know if even the best players are capable of checking quads there after you showed such little interest on the turn. It's quite a risk.

I'm voting for air.

Either way, he played it pretty fing well. I think I'm calling though.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

I am an atrocious player lately but I will frequently check quads here.

let\'s go back to the flop...
 

here's the thing rbk,

what did he call you on the flop with?....what did you put him on?.....

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

I'd probably call here also. I would've checked the river in this situation.

I suppose he could've had the flush and just put you on Ace high or a small pocket pair. I'm thinking that HE thought you were simply trying to steal with the riverbet or you had a marginal hand that he could make you fold.

Although I was in a damn similar situation. Regardless of what my hand was, it went something like this:

All Limpers

Flop
AA3

Check, I bet, Call

Turn A

Check, I bet, Call

River Q

Check, I bet, I get raised, told player I had a full house and eventually folded after figuring she had it.

Granted, the person I played against was a much different player and very tight, so it was simply my fault for trying to take this pot. And she did have Quad Aces. 8 high didn't look very good at that point.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

BTW, he could also have TT, and be pretty sure it's good. I know you do a lot of [censored] too Jonas, but I just don't see you limping after a limper with many hands that include a 3.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
since "i" bet i did not think he had the quads, and quads usually aren't hard to spot. so i call. what did he have?

[/ QUOTE ]

i wasn't really too worried about quads, but you don't think 66 or TT are likely holdings here?

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm biased because villain is my best friend in poker, and I think he's a pretty sick player, but I still don't know if even the best players are capable of checking quads there after you showed such little interest on the turn. It's quite a risk.


[/ QUOTE ]

he knows i don't like getting checked to twice.
he also knows if i had a pair on the flop i might have gotten scared by the flush hitting the turn, making it more likely i'll bet the river if checked to.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

True. This is a cool hand.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

66 could be a likely holding (which I hadn't thought about), but would he limp like that with TT in the BB?

What hands is villain putting you on here?

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
but would he limp like that with TT in the BB?


[/ QUOTE ]

well i limped in MP w/JJ.
also, raising out of the blinds w/middle pairs in deep stack poker isn't usually a highly +EV play.

sometimes you will pick up the dead money, but alot of times you will find yourself playing a difficult hand in a big pot out of position.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

I think he would limp TT here nearly always.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

Yea, you're right. I, half the time, limp with TT also. God, I am not thinking today.

Rough hand.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think he would limp TT here nearly always.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, about 100% of the time, give or take .09%.

and before you all get your panties in a bundle about being too predicatable, he might raise it up with 78suited, but not TT, and i hope you all know why.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

Hijack:

Some night last winter - He's in BB w 56 suited. LP makes it 200, K reraises to 500, LP makes it 1500, K calls, flop comes 562 they get 15 or 20 k in on the flop, LP has AA. Fun hand to watch.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

That is sick.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fun hand to watch

[/ QUOTE ]

until the river pairs the 2. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
stacks: me ~10K villian ~7K
relevant reads: villian is aggressive but good, solid player, but not afraid to make moves.

villian's read of me: views me as a thinking player but definately LAG. knows i'm more then capable of betting w/air if i sense weakness. also i believe he has picked up on the fact that i like to overbet strong hands on the river. (for LAPOKER17 this is karga).

i limp after one limper w/red JJ.
two or three limpers and he checks his BB.

flop comes 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

checked to me i pot it for ~ $260.
villian is only caller.

turn is 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

check, check.

river is 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

villian checks i bet $700
he checkraises me to $2200.

thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would put him on an overfull or the quads. 6s full of 3s and Ts full of 3s more likely than quads.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

Oops, didn't notice that the 3rd 3 fell on the river. That changes things. Yes I agree, don't check behind. I don't like being check-raised there though. I really want to call but I'm not sure that it's a good idea.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

Ok ... this is 3rd attempt at a response to this, here goes:

Villain sees the flop in the BB for free. There are 6 ways that he can have the overfull and a bunch of ways that he can hold the 3. He's calling your flop bet with any 3, and 66-TT. Bigger pairs would have been heard from before the flop and he folds most everything else if he's solid.

Villain views you as a thinking player so he doubts that you'd pot a paired flop with a flush draw so he's not afraid when it hits on the turn. If he check-raises the turn with a 3 he folds everything he's beating and gets called by 66/TT so I don't think he was going for a check-raise here with a 3.

So, on the river, he doesn't have a 3 since he would have lead that on the turn (except maybe if his kicker was a big diamond). So that leaves us with 66-TT. 77-99 is far more likely than 66 or TT so call. Couple this with the fact that he's hoping that you put him on a 3 since he saw the flop for free and this is definitely a call.

Results?

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

All the usual stuff counts here. Make the read. He thinks you have a ten. If he's nonaggressive, you fold. If he'd do that with a ten hoping to get you to fold your ten, you call. If he'd do that with a flush hoping to get you to fold your ten, you call. If he'd airball it a fair amount of the time, you call.

Since it is the Commerce, where half the players are crazy, without a read I call. Show me the overboat if you got it.

Sidenote: By limping preflop and checking the turn, you still kept the pot small even after calling the river raise.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

when the hand went down, there was this tilting jerkoff on the table that was being a real ass and he called the clock on me after like 30 seconds of deliberation.
not trying to make an excuse i just don't think i thought the hand through well enough before making my decision.

i ended up folding, however right after i did i was sick.
no way villian puts me on JJ, and since i have an LAG image there is a good chance he doesn't give me much credit for a hand.

the T on the turn is irrelevant because its a diamond so he knows i wasn't on a flush draw and hit the ten, so the most likely hand for me to be holding in his mind is a mid pocket pair or a six.

in fact after i folded he showed me 99, thinking it was the best hand.

i don't completely understand his checkraise, because he knows i'm not stupid enough to call him w/ a six in that spot so if i do call he's probably beat, but after the hand he said that he was thinking the same thing i was about the ten on the turn and he knew i was smart enough to know that so he thought i might put him on a six and call his "value" raise with 77, 88, or a naked six, which is what he put me on.

in retrospect i know that if i bet the river i should either be firmly committed to calling any reasonable raise, or i should have bet enough that he could only raise me with a better hand.

ie: if i would have bet 1K it would make it a lot harder for him to value raise me on the river with a worse hand.

also, since i know he knows i like to overbet the pot with really strong hands and since i didn't, i should have been more prone to calling his raise since my pot size bet indicated weakness.

also i should have taken into account that the way i played the hand in no way indicated to him i had anywhere near as good a hand as JJ so i definately should have called.

and i think had i thought about the hand for more then 30 secs, i would have made the call, in fact i had the chips counted out and was close, but i hate calling when i feel rushed and when its close for me in that situation i usually just fold, rather then make a bad decision and go on tilt for a bad call.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

That's actually pretty funny. Did you tell him what you laid down?

Here I am praising his play, and he didn't even know what he was doing.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
also i should have taken into account that the way i played the hand in no way indicated to him i had anywhere near as good a hand as JJ so i definately should have called.


[/ QUOTE ]

i used to have this problem when playing live. id underrepresent my hand, then forget to call when they take advantage of my "weakness".

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

i hope you feel entitled to clock that guy every time you get a chance

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

he had no idea how powerful you were.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
That's actually pretty funny. Did you tell him what you laid down?

Here I am praising his play, and he didn't even know what he was doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah it was pretty funny cuz it really looked like he wanted me to call.
and after i folded he showed me his hand saying something about how "he had it"...

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
he had no idea how powerful you were.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah.
but right after the hand i pulled down my pants and exposed my enormous phallus so he would know from there on out.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

Classic.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
he had no idea how powerful you were.

[/ QUOTE ]

lmao

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

Didn't read all the replies so perhaps someone (or you) mentioned this, but if he really had a better hand it is very unlikely that he checks the river after you checked the turn. He's a good player and wants to get something out of the hand and cannot be sure that you will bet. Also, he has not shown much strength and he knows that you know that he's a strong player capable of betting with air, so a 1/2 to pot sized bet could easily get called by you even if you don't have much. Plus he would be thinking that perhaps a bet by him will bring a big re-raise/bluff by you. It just doesn't make sense for a good player to check the river with a 3 or a full house. Oh, well.

Re: interesting 20-40 commerce hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
he had no idea how powerful you were.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah.
but right after the hand i pulled down my pants and exposed my enormous phallus so he would know from there on out.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the funniest post I've read in a week. Thanks.

A play I like to make...
 

J,

First off is Karga the soft spoken Jamaican guy that always plays the 20?

Secondly, with hands that can't stand raises on 4th(especially) or 5th street, damn on any street really, I like to bet the pot or overbet the pot so that thinking players don't interpret my bets as being weak therefore discouraging them to try to make a move, unless they have it.

The key to this is to play your hands fast, even monsters, so that they would have to have tremendous heart or read to pull off a move.

Also the call of this bet clearly (but can't say that always) defines the holding of most players that call this bet which is valuable for subsequent streets.

Now back to the hand, if Karga is who I think he is, I would have called since his image of you is being one capable of making plays.

Remember that move you tried to pull on Rupe when he had the 10's and Karga had the 2 pair and thought so long before calling, after that he will give you action for life.

But if Karga is not who I think he is, then forget about that entire ramble.

Why do you check pocket Jacks?
 

Forgive me for asking beginners question but is it normal in this situation to check pocket jacks?

I'm guessing with deep stacks much more important to deceive or trap than to get the blinds and limpers money?

What percent of the time do you check pocket jacks in this situation?

Thanks

deick