Interesting deep stack live hand ...........(i think)
 

villian in this hand is a decent player who always buys in really deep and plays very straightfoward poker. he isn't particularly tricky, and while i have seen him make moves i don't think he is much of a "player". he is the type of guy who buys in for 7K and gets visably upset about losing $120.
he also thinks he is much better then he really is (but who doesn't?)

ok so on to the hand.

i have ~2.4K, villian has ~6.5K.

i limp in LP w/33 after one EP limper (who only has ~140), the CO limps and the villian raises to $65 on the button.
we all call.

four to the flop of K22 rainbow.
flop is checked around.

turn comes 3, still rainbow.
shortstacked EP goes all in for $65.
i raise to $265, CO folds, Villian re-raises to $565.

whats your plan for the rest of the hand?

thoughts and results to follow.

Re: Interesting deep stack live hand ...........(i think)
 

Does he often check a monster on the flop? Would he check AA here? QQ? AK? Is his button raise light?

Re: Interesting deep stack live hand ...........(i think)
 

Call. Check call the river.

Re: Interesting deep stack live hand ...........(i think)
 

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Does he often check a monster on the flop? Would he check AA here? QQ? AK? Is his button raise light?

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he doesn't really raise that often preflop, and i haven't seen him get to creative in the past post-flop.
in other words i don't have too solid a line on his postflop play and not many of his hands get to showdown.
however i have seen a number of failed semi-bluffs on his part in the last couple of sessions, mostly because he refuses to fire more then one barrel at the pot.

also $55 raises are not very big in this game.

Re: Interesting deep stack live hand ...........(i think)
 

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Call. Check call the river.


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do you call all in on the river?

Re: Interesting deep stack live hand ...........(i think)
 

What are the blinds?

Re: Interesting deep stack live hand ...........(i think)
 

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What are the blinds?

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geeze...you guys need to know everything.

5-10.
sorry i'm a bit brain dead.

Re: Interesting deep stack live hand ...........(i think)
 

Nice.

If villian isn't a player, then his preflop raise isn't a speculative hand or a low pocket pair, right? That means it's a big pair or big overcards. Him checking the flop is pretty revealing, I think, the only hands that fit in those categories that he checks the flop with are KK (he's probably trying to find a way to get the money in and froze up) or a lower big PP like QQ - TT (because he is straight forward and afraid of the K). I don't think he checks this flop with AK or AA. He also wouldn't raise you on the turn with QQ - TT just to see if you have anything since it's a protected pot due to the short stack going all in, so basically I don't think he is making a move here and I'm actually kind of worried. Am I totally off?

That being said, I call his bet, and probably check/call a reasonably sized bet on the river. If he has the nuts he is not going to put in a huge river bet.

Re: Interesting deep stack live hand ...........(i think)
 

Would I call down? Not sure really. I don't think it will get to that, but if it does, it depends on how I view my opponent.

Obviously(?), this play whiffs of KK. Only you can know if he's capable of playing it this way.

What's interesting is he's raised 3 limpers to a standard amount. You describe him as tight so it seems unlikely he has a deuce in his hand.

I'd call down if it's a reasonable price. If he's as ABC as you say I'd say theres no way he's pushing with KK on the river here, he seems more likely to make a smaller bet.

Re: Interesting deep stack live hand ...........(i think)
 

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If villian isn't a player, then his preflop raise isn't a speculative hand or a low pocket pair, right? That means it's a big pair or big overcards. Him checking the flop is pretty revealing, I think, the only hands that fit in those categories that he checks the flop with are KK (he's probably trying to find a way to get the money in and froze up) or a lower big PP like QQ - TT (because he is straight forward and afraid of the K). I don't think he checks this flop with AK or AA. He also wouldn't raise you on the turn with QQ - TT just to see if you have anything since it's a protected pot due to the short stack going all in, so basically I don't think he is making a move here and I'm actually kind of worried. Am I totally off?

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you pretty much summed up my thinking.
i couldn't think of any hand he would check the flop with and then raise the turn besides KK.
however one aspect i failed to mention in my OP was that the shortstack all-in player, is an habitual bluffer.
that adds a wrinkle to the plot, as the villian may think i am trying to isolate the all-in, and therefore may be raising with a wider range of hands.
however it should be known that i have a pretty solid table image. while i mix up my play, and definately play a wide range of hands preflop, i generally get a lot of respect in my postflop play.

Re: Interesting deep stack live hand ...........(i think)
 

Glad to hear that our thoughts on this hand are similiar as I frequently learn a lot from your views on the game...the short stack bluffer does add a nice twist to this, but I still think more often than not this straight forward player has you. Why would he potentially risk $1000s for a $200 pot if you aren't kidding and aren't just trying to isolate, you know? Doesn't seem right. I suppose though, if you call his turn, and the river goes check, check, then you are right, he was just looking you up, and your hand is good. I'm interested in what he really had...

Re: Interesting deep stack live hand ...........(i think)
 

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I don't think he checks this flop with AK or AA.

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Why not? If there was ever a flop to check AA or AK on, K22 would be it.

Re: Interesting deep stack live hand ...........(i think)
 

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however i have seen a number of failed semi-bluffs on his part in the last couple of sessions, mostly because he refuses to fire more then one barrel at the pot.


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There's one reason to call the turn and make a decision after checking the river.

Another important question is whether or not you can double through him if he has AK or AA.

Re: results and thoughts
 

ok.
so i called the turn figuring i could make my decison on the river based on his action.

river came a jack, i checked he thought about it for a minute then finally checked behind.

i showed my boat, MHWG.
he claimed he had AK, and i believe him.

ok so here is my question, obviously based on hindsight.

should i have led out for ~600 on the river and then fold to a reraise? as sort of a blocking/value bet?

i definately think he has to call w/ AK on the river but there is pretty much no way he is coming over the top of me with AK so if he raises me on the river i can fold.

i definately think reraising the turn was the worst possible option so i'm glad no one advocated that line...however i think there may be a case for leading the river.

i can honestly say that i was mentally prepared to fold my hand had he pushed the river.

Re: Interesting deep stack live hand ...........(i think)
 

My guess would be that he held KQ or possibly AK if he is the tight player you wrote about in the original post. I agree with yours and AZK thinking but I really believe that KK is out of the question with the knowledge of the habitual bluffer. Hope it worked out for you and I'm dying to read results.

Re: results and thoughts
 

I like the idea of betting the river a lot.

Re: results and thoughts
 

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so if he raises me on the river i can fold.

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Then I think you should bet as much as you are willing to check-call on the river.

Re: results and thoughts
 

Perfectly stated.

Re: results and thoughts
 

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I like the idea of betting the river a lot.

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yeah i kind of played it like a pussy.
it is amazing though how much more complex the game becomes when you get deep.
however i think that i have to lead the river here...and normally i play it a little more aggressively...but for some reason i just got a really strong feeling that he had KK.

it just seemed so odd to play any other hand that way.
however in retrospect i guess its not that bad of a line to take with AK or AA once the turn gets there as he certainly slowed me down (although i hate his flop check).

i think the reason i won the minimum here is because of his flop check...if it was heads up i could understand it but he's checking behind three callers... why give us a free shot at the set unless he has KK? he has to put at least one of us on a pocket pair, and even though we're most likely drawing to two outs why give us infinate odds to get there?
and then he has to play guessing games on the turn if someone comes out firing...it just seems like a really odd way to play AA or AK in that situation.

but i think this is just another example of how much easier it is to mull over all of these factors in retrospect...i mean as soon as the hand was over i'm thinking to myself there is no way he makes such a small raise in position after three limpers with AA or AK, since he knows no one is folding.

Re: results and thoughts
 

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Then I think you should bet as much as you are willing to check-call on the river.

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yeah you are 100% correct.
i think my problem was that i had such a strong gut feeling that i was beat i couldn't pull the trigger on the river.
i mean i was practically getting ready to muck my hand on the river before he even acted.

and anyone that knows me knows that i am anything but weak tight.
i just made the wrong read.

Re: results and thoughts
 

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i think my problem was that i had such a strong gut feeling that i was beat i couldn't pull the trigger on the river.
i mean i was practically getting ready to muck my hand on the river before he even acted.

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I could not possibly see a good player raise the turn with KK here as if a good player intends to milk his fullhouse for full value, he would call and then pop you on the river.

Lawrence

Re: results and thoughts
 

Well he still could have KK here, but you're right Lawrence that with posistion he would just stick it to you on the river.

It seems to me that he is getting value from what he thinks is the best hand, and more clearly determining what he is up against. Signs point to AK. I would bet 800-1200 on the river and hope for a call.

Re: results and thoughts
 

I can't see most good players checking the flop either with AK but he did it. If this was omaha I can see the river check - call. But its hold em and full houses are quite rare. I think you definitely bet the river and then you can worry and kings if you get raised. Check calling is good for catching bluffs, not for getting value from a hand. As diablo said, you should make a river bet of the size you would be willing to check call. Compare the EV of each line:

1) Bet half pot and get called on river by AA AK and raised by KK. Make half pot bet maybe 60% of the time (just my guess). Lose half pot bet maybe 40% when he has KK.
EV=+.2 river bets

2) Check and call . He checks behind 60% and you win nothing (besides the pot) with AK AA. He bets half pot with KK (40%) and you call, losing you a half pot bet.
EV=-.4 river bets.

This is obviously an oversimplification but I believe it is fundamentally sound. I understand the urge to check call with deep stacks to keep the pot small. This just isnt a good spot for it.