overpair JJ facing heavy flop action
 

Stars $11, 1 rebuy, 1 addon. I took my rebuy immediately. Table has been pretty donkish, as a whole. BB in this hand has been playing a fair number of hands and firing pot sized bets on the flop pretty often, so I don't think this is representative of that much strength. MP (oldmanricky) made his main impression on me by raising UTG+1 with AJ for 4xBB and then calling a ~100BB push.

PokerStars Game #2645371343: Tournament #12672552, Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2005/09/23 - 21:22:04 (ET)
Table '12672552 101' Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Subby8000 (4640 in chips)
Seat 2: MtlBndr (3300 in chips)
Seat 3: gumpzilla (3240 in chips)
Seat 4: nanc73 (4935 in chips)
Seat 5: TrueJacks (4390 in chips)
Seat 6: Red Lion 70 (1080 in chips)
Seat 7: Jayshore (1875 in chips)
Seat 8: 2005XKR (11980 in chips)
Seat 9: oldmanricky (3390 in chips)
gumpzilla: posts small blind 50
nanc73: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to gumpzilla [Jd Jc]
TrueJacks: calls 100
Red Lion 70: folds
Jayshore: folds
2005XKR: folds
oldmanricky: calls 100
Subby8000: folds
MtlBndr: calls 100
gumpzilla: calls 50
nanc73: checks
*** FLOP *** [9s 4d Tc]
gumpzilla: checks
nanc73: bets 500
TrueJacks: folds
oldmanricky: raises 1000 to 1500
MtlBndr: folds
gumpzilla: ???

Re: overpair JJ facing heavy flop action
 

Why are you limping PF? (If you really can't play this hand at all for some reason, push and let oldman call)...anyway, beat him into the pot.

Re: overpair JJ facing heavy flop action
 

I was pretty unconvinced of my ability to thin the field to my liking by raising PF here and didn't really want to play a large pot against two opponents from the SB and be unhappy when the overcard came. If I had 40-50 BBs instead of 30 I might take this approach, it sort of goes with my whims at the moment. My plan was to get away cheaply if the action looked crazy and an overcard came, and check anticipating a nice bet from somebody else if JJ came as an overpair. Beating him into pot is a pretty fair description of what I did, but since most of my poker has been against other 2+2'ers or HU for the past few weeks I've turned into something of a lagmonster and consequently am making a lot of pretty borderline calls, so this post is just a bit of a sanity check.

Re: overpair JJ facing heavy flop action
 

Umm, so your argument basically is "I don't wanna raise b/c I know I'm gonna get sucked out on"? You should have raised PF to represent a good hand, and then cont. bet the flop, if you get raised play it from there.

Re: overpair JJ facing heavy flop action
 

You need to raise anyway, even if you don't thin the field. JJ is too good a hand. I would raise to atleast 500. If overcards flop, you may want to check and decide what to do based on the action. It is OK to raise and then fold on the flop. That's the standard way to play JJ in limit: raise preflop, fold after the flop.

If you don't want to play out of position, pushing is an alternative, but that kind of depends on the chance someone is trapping and the chance of getting a loose call.

Re: overpair JJ facing heavy flop action
 

[ QUOTE ]
Umm, so your argument basically is "I don't wanna raise b/c I know I'm gonna get sucked out on"?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, my argument was that I don't want to play out of position after putting 1/6 of my stack in against what I guessed would likely be two opponents when a large chunk of possible flops (any K or A, and probably Qs) put me in an extremely awkward position. Having a pot of 1700 or so and having 2700 behind and acting from the SB in that situation doesn't appeal to me that much. If you make the stacks substantially deeper so that I'd have some more flop options, then I'd like raising more.

Re: overpair JJ facing heavy flop action
 

Pre-flop you have two choices: raise or raise more.

If you've been playing aggressively then push. Otherwise raise but make it more than a normal amount - something around 1,000. You've got to be willing to take more risks during the rebuy.

Personally, I can't see folding an overpair during the rebuy period in this tournament unless I'm playing against absolute rocks.

Re: overpair JJ facing heavy flop action
 

Perhaps I was unclear: each contestant gets one rebuy, and I've taken mine. I'm pretty sure the villain had taken his as well.

Re: overpair JJ facing heavy flop action
 

I would move allin. No one has to have JJ beaten for this type of action to take place.

results
 

I did move all in, BB folds, MP calls and shows QQ, my luckbox fails to kick in.

I didn't really doubt this move, but it occurred to me afterward that I didn't really have any conception of the range of MP and just figured that he could certainly make that move with AT. What kind of range do people put him on, and do people still think this is essentially an autocall if you haven't seen him make dubious plays already?

Re: results
 

[ QUOTE ]
I did move all in, BB folds, MP calls and shows QQ, my luckbox fails to kick in.

I didn't really doubt this move, but it occurred to me afterward that I didn't really have any conception of the range of MP and just figured that he could certainly make that move with AT. What kind of range do people put him on, and do people still think this is essentially an autocall if you haven't seen him make dubious plays already?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really put people on ranges, or at least if I do, its all subconsious. My range for him is that probably he can't beat JJ, but sometimes he can. However not enough so that you shouldn't move allin.

Re: results
 

I'd basically say that every decision you have been forced to make post-flop could have been made easier with a preflop raise.

Re: results
 

[ QUOTE ]

I don't really put people on ranges, or at least if I do, its all subconsious. My range for him is that probably he can't beat JJ, but sometimes he can. However not enough so that you shouldn't move allin.

[/ QUOTE ]

I generally don't at the table in great detail, either, because doing it explicitly takes too long, but I like to try and do it when looking at hands on the side just so I get some kind of sense.

Re: overpair JJ facing heavy flop action
 

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I was unclear: each contestant gets one rebuy, and I've taken mine. I'm pretty sure the villain had taken his as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
This makes it even more important to raise pre-flop and figure out where you stand. I still think you go broke on this hand but I might consider laying it down depending upon my read of the villain.

Re: results
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really put people on ranges, or at least if I do, its all subconsious. My range for him is that probably he can't beat JJ, but sometimes he can. However not enough so that you shouldn't move allin.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm guessing this gets back to your previous main focus of multi-tabling SNGs. While you can't always take the time to put your opponent on a range of hands, when the decision is for all your chips you better take the time. Not doing so will severely impact your ability to consistently do well in MTTs - IMHO.

Re: results
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't really put people on ranges, or at least if I do, its all subconsious. My range for him is that probably he can't beat JJ, but sometimes he can. However not enough so that you shouldn't move allin.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm guessing this gets back to your previous main focus of multi-tabling SNGs. While you can't always take the time to put your opponent on a range of hands, when the decision is for all your chips you better take the time. Not doing so will severely impact your ability to consistently do well in MTTs - IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't think so at all. Once you are experienced you can put people on ranges subconsciously. I don't have to sit here and try to figure out every possible hand this guy could have. I've been in this spot many times before and am experienced enough to handle it.

Also I don't think you realize just how elementary it is to play 4 MTTs at once, compared to what I'm used to playing. I doubt if it would affect my results in the slightest. Once I play upwards of 6, then there might be some impact.

Let's put it this way, I know for sure that after I put this guy on a "range", I would move allin. I don't have to waste my time and actually figure out every possible hand this player might have. Also it's not easy to put the morons that we play against every day on a range. It's not as though you can expect them to be rational most of the time.

Re: results
 

Ok. Maybe do a post on this and see what others think. While you could certainly be an exceptional exception, most of the people I respect would probably say that taking the time to put someone on a range of hands during a critical moment is essential.

Re: results
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok. Maybe do a post on this and see what others think. While you could certainly be an exceptional exception, most of the people I respect would probably say that taking the time to put someone on a range of hands during a critical moment is essential.

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I don't consider this moment critical. And my point is that I can do it unconsiously. When you have enough experience you don't have to treat every situation as though its the first time you've seen it. I can draw back on my knowledge of many similar types of hands, and use it to draw faster conclusions than most whom have less experience or whom have done less work on poker.

Re: results
 

You don't think making a decision for all your chips is critical? All I know is that guys like Harrington, Lederer, and Fossilman have given countless examples of putting people on a range of hands during play. Like I said, I guess you're the exceptional exception.

Re: results
 

i'm with curtains here... i'm not claiming to have his experience, or that i never try and put my opponents on ranges... but typically when i'm playing it's on 'instinct' orbasically my past experiences. When i review/analyse plays later that's when i start putting them on ranges and doing the math and such.

Oh, but i do keep the 'Powertoys Calculat' open while i play.. so i's not ALL instinct.

Re: results
 

[ QUOTE ]
You don't think making a decision for all your chips is critical? All I know is that guys like Harrington, Lederer, and Fossilman have given countless examples of putting people on a range of hands during play. Like I said, I guess you're the exceptional exception.

[/ QUOTE ]


If your decision is whether or not to call an allin preflop with AA, would that be critical too? Would it be critical to call an allin with top set on the flop?

The decision has to be a relatively close one before it becomes critical. In this type of tournament, in this spot, this would not be a close decision to me.

Also I suspect that plenty of the hands these above mentioned players have put forth in their book, are not close or difficult decisions for them either, however they go over all the ranges for the novice players who need to learn to think in this manner.

Of course sometimes you have to try your best to put your opponent on a range of possible hands. However the way it's done on here I find is not very effective. People just seem to give a list of possible hands without taking into effect the frequency in which their opponents will have one set of hands over the other.

People also often seem to forget that there is always a decent % chance that your opponent is a moron,that these hand rages are way way off, and your opponent could have some random nonsense.

I see too many attempts on 2+2 to put some random player from a $11 rebuy tournament on very narrow/specific range of hands.

Anyway I'm not making my point very well, I just think that the whole hand range thing is overdone/overemphasized. Sometimes you will come up with a range where every logical hand your opponent could have would lead you to fold. However it's rare that I see people on 2+2 take into account that their opponent may be completely illogical or insane, as is the case with many MTT opponents that we will face online.

Re: results
 

Anyway I'm probably being stupid. Hand ranges are important, however one should be able to make a good estimate extremely quickly and unconsciously, especially online. Doing harder work on them in advance is probably a decent idea as it should lead you to make quicker decisions when necessary.

Most of the time when I see proposed hand ranges on 2+2 I think they are bogus, yet see almost no one correcting the suggestions.

Sometimes you just have to know what the right play is without having to resort to such tedious methods. It depends on the situation and the level of experience that the player has. However if you ask a hand range, and some strong player doesn't feel like its necessary to give a specific one, they probably don't need to.

Re: overpair JJ facing heavy flop action
 

Agree 100% with curtains, that man is smart.

Re: results
 

[ QUOTE ]
However it's rare that I see people on 2+2 take into account that their opponent may be completely illogical or insane, as is the case with many MTT opponents that we will face online.

[/ QUOTE ]

Insane or illogical people will hold a range of cards too, it will just be incredibly wide.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but again I think there's a pretty big difference between doing it at the table and doing it when looking at things after the fact. To make an analogy from SNG analysis, there are a lot of times where you will feel ICM analysis of a situation is unnecessary because you don't need it. That doesn't make the analysis wrong or irrelevant.

Re: results
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However it's rare that I see people on 2+2 take into account that their opponent may be completely illogical or insane, as is the case with many MTT opponents that we will face online.

[/ QUOTE ]

Insane or illogical people will hold a range of cards too, it will just be incredibly wide.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but again I think there's a pretty big difference between doing it at the table and doing it when looking at things after the fact. To make an analogy from SNG analysis, there are a lot of times where you will feel ICM analysis of a situation is unnecessary because you don't need it. That doesn't make the analysis wrong or irrelevant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I hear you, just something about the way it's gone about here bugs me a bit. Take a look at the play a hand with the masters thing preflop.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...t=all&vc=1

We are trying to put the cutoff on a range?

They could have practically anything!! They are limping in on the cutoff with over 100x the BB. You can't immediately put someone on a range here. What I'm saying is that its just not the most relevant thing to talk about in such a situation. Sometimes it's important, sometimes it's not.

It's also not important because you can usually eliminate like 80-90% of the possible hands after there is some postflop action.

Anyway despite all this I'm sure that I'm putting my opponent on a range by thinking that they could have virtually any 2 cards, and I see that some people gave ranges that were way too tight and thus need work in this department, although almost none of them were corrected.