Weak queen, small pot.
 

Im having alot of probs with these weak kickers in small pots. I think it is one of my biggest leaks.

My main interest is in the flop play, but comments on all streets please.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.5.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, Hero (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB folds, MP1 calls.

Raise or fold here? im lost

Turn: (5 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls, SB folds.

I prob should have dumped it here when MP1 leads into me after being raised.

River: (7 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Re: Weak queen, small pot.
 

Don't post in MP2!

Re: Weak queen, small pot.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don't post in MP2!

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Even if I posted in the CO, I'm folding this on the flop with no kicker.

Re: Weak queen, small pot.
 

you're folding top pair??

Re: Weak queen, small pot.
 

calling down with top pair on an uncoordinated board is a leak?

Re: Weak queen, small pot.
 

Why are you posting in MP2? That's also a leak. Think about it, if every session you play you post from middle position, that can add up to hundreds of small bets. If you're going to post, post from the CO. People love to raise when there's a poster because it's almost dead money they get to win when you (normally) have to fold. Otherwise, wait for the big blind.

I fold the flop, the pot is way too small.

Re: Weak queen, small pot.
 

Hell yeah, the pot is tiny, and we don't have a kicker. Otherwise you're fighting over scraps.

Re: Weak queen, small pot.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you posting in MP2? That's also a leak. Think about it, if every session you play you post from middle position, that can add up to hundreds of small bets. If you're going to post, post from the CO. People love to raise when there's a poster because it's almost dead money they get to win when you (normally) have to fold. Otherwise, wait for the big blind.

I fold the flop, the pot is way too small.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I don't advocate posting in this position, it's not THAT bad a leak.

Re: Weak queen, small pot.
 

Yes, because those times that your weak kicker doesn't lose, you win next to nothing because of the small pot.

Re: Weak queen, small pot.
 

I have over 400 sessions in PT. Suppose that in 50% of them I posted from MP, and 75% of the time I was dealt junk and had to fold (and then paid the BB and SB a couple hands later) the flop or preflop. That's 150 sessions where I donated a SB by posting out of position, which makes 75 big bets. Now wouldn't you like to have those 75BB back?

A leak is largely a function of how often you get to make the error. Once per session isn't one of the worst leaks, but donating a SB every other session is terrible.

Re: Weak queen, small pot.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have over 400 sessions in PT. Suppose that in 50% of them I posted from MP, and 75% of the time I was dealt junk and had to fold (and then paid the BB and SB a couple hands later) the flop or preflop. That's 150 sessions where I donated a SB by posting out of position, which makes 75 big bets. Now wouldn't you like to have those 75BB back?

A leak is largely a function of how often you get to make the error. Once per session isn't one of the worst leaks, but donating a SB every other session is terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're taking the cost in a vaccuum. If instead of posting in MP2 you posted in the CO instead, what's the "cost" come up to then?

Re: Weak queen, small pot.
 

I think you're going a little heavy on the kool-aid.
The example in SSHE gives you a pair of 9's OOP. Here we have Q's so we're much less likely to get outdrawn if we do have the best hand, plus we have the post-flop button.

Re: Weak queen, small pot.
 

If you wait for the BB you get the added advantage of getting some reads without spending any money.

Re: Weak queen, small pot.
 

post as you wish. me? it's either CO, Button, or BB. but to debate your play:

no reads, i'm folding the flop because i don't know what MP1 is betting: straight draw, top pair, 2nd pair? maybe he limps in with AQ, QQ (yes, i've seen it done).

his stop-n-go is even more confusing with no reads. maybe he now has 2 pair or maybe he had TT and now has a set. too many questions for such a small pot. fold the flop, or play it like you did and fold the turn IMHO.

Re: Weak queen, small pot.
 

As a newbie, I'm suprised to read everyone fold TPNK so easily.

Yes, you have no kicker, but you have 5 outs, and possibly the best hand right now. I don't see how you can lay this down on the flop.

Facing the turn bet would give you a feeling that you're beat, but at .5/1 I can't tell you how many times I've seen 2nd pair push and push..

Would it be wrong to call this hand down?

Just curious
Francis

Re: Weak queen, small pot.
 

[ QUOTE ]
As a newbie, I'm suprised to read everyone fold TPNK so easily.

Yes, you have no kicker, but you have 5 outs, and possibly the best hand right now. I don't see how you can lay this down on the flop.

Facing the turn bet would give you a feeling that you're beat, but at .5/1 I can't tell you how many times I've seen 2nd pair push and push..

Would it be wrong to call this hand down?

Just curious
Francis

[/ QUOTE ]

because we don't know if this is the kind of player that will push push with 2nd best. so you raise the flop and then he bets into you again on the turn, do you really think your TPCrappyK is really going to win this? it's spewing with no reads even if you do get lucky and win this pityful pot.

Re: Weak queen, small pot.
 

I like raising the flop, but I think when you're bet into again on the turn, just dump it.

Re: Weak queen, small pot.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, you have no kicker, but you have 5 outs

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't have 5 outs if your kicker is beat. You only have 3.

Of course there are also hidden outs to take into account, etc etc..

Re: Weak queen, small pot.
 

[in the dark]

I think this is read dependant. Does villain play any queen? Will he play A8? Will he give it up if raised? Raise the flop and if 3 bet fold.

[/in the dark]
edited because return entered the post before I was done