Stop berating the fish - HARD PROOF of why it is bad to do so
 

In my last 2 sessions I have had 2 separate experiences with 2 of my favorite contributors that show beyond reasonable doubt that it is -EV to berate the fish.

Last night, one of my favorite fish catches a lucky draw to crack a TAG's good hand. The TAG then goes on a verbal tirade, calling the fish every dirty name in the book. The fish goes to another table, and our table breaks up shortly thereafter.

I follow the fish. He comments on this. I don't have the exact chat, but it was something like this:

Fish: Hey, are we at the same table again?
Me: yeah, that other game broke up. That one guy was being a jerk and everybody left
Fish: Which guy, there were several jerks
Me: the one to your immediate left
Fish: Oh yeah, he was being a total jerk, which is why I left

And from tonight...

I raise first in with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Another of my favorite fish coldcalls with Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], a terrible call but that's what fish do

I catch top pair, he catches a gutshot and a backdoor flush draw. He rivers the gutshot, raises me, and wins a big pot. His postflop play was not terrible but his preflop call was atrocious; even so, I said nothing. When I have Big Slick, I want QT to call me every time.

A few minutes later I flop Aces Up in a multiway, preflop capped hand and won a huge pot. He comments exactly this:

Fish: nh
Me: thanks, needed it
Fish: pot was too big
Me: after you caught that str8 on me [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Fish: i had to stay
Fish: yep
Fish: thanks for not yelling at me
Me: i woulda made the same play you did
Fish: calling me names
Fish: lol
Me: you had a decent hand, i would have played it the same way

In example #1 above, the fish got irritated because the TAG berated him, and the fish then left the table. -EV for the TAG. In example #2, the fish actually THANKED me for not berating him. +EV for me.

There you have it. Berating the fish is -EV. And I know that some of you on these boards are guilty of doing so. May I say - STOP! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Stop berating the fish - HARD PROOF of why it is bad to do so
 

Amen, I hope it wasn't me.

Re: Stop berating the fish - HARD PROOF of why it is bad to do so
 

I like berating the good players. It puts them on tilt.

Re: Stop berating the fish - HARD PROOF of why it is bad to do so
 

Worst post I have ever read.

Re: Stop berating the fish - HARD PROOF of why it is bad to do so
 

It's bad to berate calling stations. They play the game for fun and they don't want anyone ruining the party.

However, being able to tilt semi-decent LAGs into maniacs is a good thing at NL. I never resist talking to these types after I put a bad beat on them, or after I raise some suited connector and hit a straight or flush - they almost inevitably have something to say, and saying things like "I had odds" or "it's a good play" will get them even more irritated. Generally these people try to tilt everyone at the table anyway, so I don't feel bad about trying to tilt them.

Re: Stop berating the fish - HARD PROOF of why it is bad to do so
 

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I raise first in with A K
Another of my favorite fish coldcalls with Q T , a terrible call but that's what fish do

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He was floating...

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Depending on the poster in mid stakes, his play might look like genius.

b

Re: Stop berating the fish - HARD PROOF of why it is bad to do so
 

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I like berating the good players. It puts them on tilt.

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Well said. Berating a fish isnt going to do anything but hurt you. They either are going to listen to your advice (unlikely but possible) and not put themselves in bad position again. Or they will leave the table, which is also unporfitable.

However, like you said, table talk with strong players is one of the best things you can do to get them on tilt. Players that are strong, know they are strong, and therefore will take your trash talk and abuse just to get a crack at your stack. This puts them on tilt and gives you the advantage....

Nice quote

Re: Stop berating the fish - HARD PROOF of why it is bad to do so
 

[ QUOTE ]
However, like you said, table talk with strong players is one of the best things you can do to get them on tilt. Players that are strong, know they are strong, and therefore will take your trash talk and abuse just to get a crack at your stack. This puts them on tilt and gives you the advantage....

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You can't tilt a strong player with trashy table talk. If it looks to you like you did, then you are the one being set up.

Strong players don't care what you say.

If you tell me they do, then I say that they aren't as strong as they or you think they are.

Players who are prone to tilt and can't stop it or recognize it are simply not strong enough in my book to be called strong.

You will not gain an advantage in this fashion. You either already have it, or you are the fish to the strong player. Stay out of his way...

Re: Stop berating the fish - HARD PROOF of why it is bad to do so
 

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Fish: thanks for not yelling at me


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Another of my favorite fish coldcalls with Q T , a terrible call but that's what fish do

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Hahaha
[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Love this post.:)

Re: Stop berating the fish - HARD PROOF of why it is bad to do so
 

I notice that we don't get all the details of the aces-up hand like we do of the "bad beat" hand. What level are you playing at? The guy's play in the first hand doesn't sound so "atrocious" to me as to warrant chasing him around so much that he is aware of it.

I'm also curious to hear how he played pretty well postflop in that first hand that developed into a "big pot." And of course, in how he played postflop in that second hand that developed into a "huge pot."

Re: Stop berating the fish - HARD PROOF of why it is bad to do so
 

Only an idiot wouldn't realize that it's -EV.

But we still can't do anything about it. The poker sites don't give a [censored] about table coaching. I complain every week it seems, and it doesn't do any good. The sites say that they won't ban "coffeehousing".

When a fish feels good because he wasn't berated, you know you have a problem. They shouldn't be berated at all and only sunglass WPT wearing fuckers with tiny penises table coach.

Re: Stop berating the fish - HARD PROOF of why it is bad to do so
 

This is a fallacy - like if you say you know the right action, and do something else, well, you couldn't 'know' it in the first place.

Some players are difficult and dangerous but they will tilt, or begin gunning for you, if you say the right things. It's far too simplistic to say "You won't gain an advantage." Sometimes I think I do. Especially at heads up or short handed NL, where I spend most of my poker time.

Re: Stop berating the fish - HARD PROOF of why it is bad to do so
 

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I'm also curious to hear how he played pretty well postflop in that first hand that developed into a "big pot." And of course, in how he played postflop in that second hand that developed into a "huge pot."

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Coldcalling with QTs after someone has raised first in with AK is a mistake. Fundamental Thereom of Poker, baby.

Postflop play was fine because there were other coldcallers behind him, so he was getting approximate proper odds to chase. No way he knew this, though, since he is a fishy wishy. He just knew "Oh, I have a straight draw."

Re: Stop berating the fish - HARD PROOF of why it is bad to do so
 

Drew, Do you ever notice how often when someone disagrees with an obviously true statement, they change the conditions to try and justify their dissent?

I thought it was clear that you were talking about limit poker and most likely a full ring game. (multi-way, capped pot doesn't usually describe heads up or No Limit play).

Then they want to go from berating a fish to trying to tilt a LAG that is attempting to run over the table.

Everybody slips from time to time and lets their frustration show but if you are playing a full ring game and you berate another player, you are an IDIOT. Only two things will happen, the fish will tighten up and play better or they will leave the table and both outcomes are -EV.

Re: Stop berating the fish - HARD PROOF of why it is bad to do so
 

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This is a fallacy - like if you say you know the right action, and do something else, well, you couldn't 'know' it in the first place.

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Knowing the correct action and doing something else without a very good reason is the definition of tilt.

I'm not saying that good players don't tilt, but I am saying that if you think they are good, you are picking the wrong target.

Play against the players that are weaker than you unless you have a good reason why you can't do that. (like being in a tournament)

If you keep butting heads with players better than you, you will lose a lot of buy ins during your education.

I'm also a short handed / HU player, and I understand what you're saying. Look at it like this:

How many times do you say to yourself, "Oh, the 3 seat thinks I'm on tilt now because of the last 2 beats in a row. He's more likely than usual to call a big bet from me."

Think about it.

Re: Stop berating the fish - HARD PROOF of why it is bad to do so
 

I'm not butting heads with better players. I'm playing against tricky LAGs who are also willing to stack off with one pair hands - who love making big moves. Sometimes they play well, sometimes they go on crazy tilt and donate their buy-in to me. Since I do not go on crazy tilt (my tilting is more subtle, I tend to be able to prevent myself from stacking off on a tilt-bluff), I win money from them.

Your argument makes it sound like table talk has never once been effective. Just shutting up and saying 'nh' once in a while with the same group of players is no fun - I'm looking for every edge. Maybe it has no effect, and maybe those tilting players would throw away their stacks to me anyway. But I like to think it does have an effect.

And, it's fun. Can't this game have any fun in it?

Re: Stop berating the fish - HARD PROOF of why it is bad to do so
 

This one situation is not hard proof. It proves that this one player left because he does not like trash talk.

Loose passives are MUCH less profitable than loose aggressives. Loose aggressives play that way because they think they're good enough to bully you around. When you insult a loose aggressive, he plays more aggressively. And if he tilts, thats just a beautiful thing.

A loose passive player will lose his buyin over hours and hours worth of table time. A tilted LAG will dump his stack much faster than that.

I've got a LOT of berating experience. I know the effects. I'd stop if it was losing me money. And I havent stopped.

Re: Stop berating the fish - HARD PROOF of why it is bad to do so
 

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I like berating the good players. It puts them on tilt.

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this is my approach. but i also pretend i dont know who the good players are, so i get to berate everyone.

Re: Stop berating the fish - HARD PROOF of why it is bad to do so
 

[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Stop berating the fish - HARD PROOF of why it is bad to do so
 

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Drew, Do you ever notice how often when someone disagrees with an obviously true statement, they change the conditions to try and justify their dissent?

I thought it was clear that you were talking about limit poker and most likely a full ring game. (multi-way, capped pot doesn't usually describe heads up or No Limit play).

Then they want to go from berating a fish to trying to tilt a LAG that is attempting to run over the table.



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Yeah, I noticed. This thread definitely took a different direction that I expected.

This was a full limit ring game, not headsup. These were calling stations, not maniacs. Berating them is a -EV move, period.

Remember the words of wisdom of Amarillo Slim: "You can shear a sheep many times, but skin him only once." Keep berating the fish, and eventually no one will want to play with you. The well may be deep, but it ain't bottomless.

Ah well. We all do what we have to do to win, I guess [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Stop berating the fish - HARD PROOF of why it is bad to do so
 

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Fish: nh
Me: thanks, needed it
Fish: pot was too big
Me: after you caught that str8 on me [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Fish: i had to stay
Fish: yep
Fish: thanks for not yelling at me
Me: i woulda made the same play you did
Fish: calling me names
Fish: lol
Me: you had a decent hand, i would have played it the same way


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fish play this game for fun, I think we forget that when we're grinding out our thousands of hands/week.

and the fish don't think like we do.

convos like this actually have the possibility of this fish putting you on his buddy list -- because you're his buddy, you see.

put that in your EV pipe and smoke it

Re: Stop berating the fish - HARD PROOF of why it is bad to do so
 

Word.

There is this one guy who I regularry play against in 10 20 and 15 30 game.
Horrible fish, J8o is good to call three cold etc, basicly perfect calling station.
And is usually the biggest donator, still he comes back to play short handed everytime and says hello to me.
And always is fun to chat with in table.
We have actually even changed emails [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Dunno if I would feel bad if I didin't know the money do not matter to him.

Re: Stop berating the fish - HARD PROOF of why it is bad to do so
 

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I like berating the good players. It puts them on tilt.

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Re: Stop berating the fish - HARD PROOF of why it is bad to do so
 

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Loose passives are MUCH less profitable than loose aggressives.

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In limit, I don't agree. LAGs can be tough (but beatable) opponents. Your variance will go up against them. I like playing them.

Loose passive opponents are the worst players at the table, and the ones I want at my table even more. Your variance isn't as high when playing them. Because they are passive, they are constantly making mistakes, unlike the LAGs who are often playing correct strategy with their aggressiveness.

-ptmusic