AKs.
 

No reads. What's Hero's turn action? I'll follow up with my move after a significant amount of replies.. and then onto the river. Thanks.

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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (8 handed)

BB ($154.70)
UTG ($214.50)
UTG+1 ($258.50)
MP1 ($404.20)
MP2 ($63.15)
CO ($199.80)
Hero ($221.05)
SB ($41)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls $2, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $2, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $12</font>, SB calls $11, BB calls $10, MP1 folds, CO folds.

Flop: ($40) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets $12</font>, Hero calls $12, SB folds.

Turn: ($64) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero ??
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Re: AKs.
 

I'd bet $50, fold to a raise and then check the river through. If he bets the river again i probably fold unless i'm getting a good price to look him up.

Re: AKs.
 

I would check. It would have to be a very bad opponent to call with a worse king here, and while there are some gutshots to worry about, I think the added value you might get from the hands you beat make up for the free card. Pot control is not an important factor here, as you'd be folding to a raise if you bet but still something I guess.

Re: AKs.
 

i vote check. i think there are more hands that we beat that will bet the river, than call a bet on the turn. i think that we let weaker kings off the hook by betting the turn and get c/r'ed by most hands that beat us.

Re: AKs.
 

I try to check this down. So check behind on the turn and call a reasonable bet on the river.

Re: AKs.
 

I'd also check, but I'm raising the flop and taking the initiative back.

Re: AKs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd also check, but I'm raising the flop and taking the initiative back.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't raise the flop for a few reasons.. the main reason being that I figure to be way ahead or way behind. If I hand like KJo is leading into me, he's a 3:1 dog on the flop, so I'm not very worried about it. If I am already crushed by a set or the made straight, I am losing less. If he bets again on the turn, which I figure these hands to do, I can fold. If they check, I can take back the initiative by betting, which is what I did.

-----
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (8 handed)

BB ($154.70)
UTG ($214.50)
UTG+1 ($258.50)
MP1 ($404.20)
MP2 ($63.15)
CO ($199.80)
Hero ($221.05)
SB ($41)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls $2, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $2, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $12</font>, SB calls

$11, BB calls $10, MP1 folds, CO folds.

Flop: ($40) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets $12</font>, Hero calls $12, SB folds.

Turn: ($64) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $30</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $60</font>, Hero ??
-----

Ugh.. I figured I couldn't give a free card here. I wanted to define the hand. Opponent showed weakness by slowing down so I figured a bet was neccessary. Perhaps a check behind and perhaps a call on the river is better?

Re: AKs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If he bets again on the turn, which I figure these hands to do, I can fold. If they check, I can take back the initiative by betting, which is what I did.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the problem with not raising the flop. Its too easy for someone to bet twice with a weaker king or a queen.

If I sensed the slightest bit of weakness in your flop call, I'd bet again on the turn.

EDIT-- I didn't read the action on the turn that was just posted. This is also something that happens if you don't raise the flop. You don't know if he was betting into you with a queen, or a king.

Re: AKs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps a check behind and perhaps a call on the river is better?


[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely. I might fold the hand now. I really don't like that check/raise.

Re: AKs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is the problem with not raising the flop. Its too easy for someone to bet twice with a weaker king or a queen.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this guy leads into me TWICE for a healthy bet with a crappy King, good for him, I'm folding. I do not see many people doing this without a better hand. Not at $200 NL and not against myself as I have a pretty solid image, or so I'd like to think. I just don't think this is a great hand in this spot. Against known aggressive opponents I'd probably raise the flop, but against unknowns, I like a call.


[ QUOTE ]
If I sensed the slightest bit of weakness in your flop call, I'd bet again on the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but I assume you're a decent poker player. A lot of people suck.


[ QUOTE ]
This is also something that happens if you don't raise the flop. You don't know if he was betting into you with a queen, or a king.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I raise, and he calls, how exactly does that narrow down his holdings? He could still have AK, AQ, KQ, JT, 99, Q9, QJ, KJ, etc. Bleh. I think an element we are forgetting here is that, assuming this guy has AQ or something, I've gotten extremely unlucky on the turn. 90% of the time, the turn does not help him.


[ QUOTE ]
Definitely. I might fold the hand now. I really don't like that check/raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it comes down to reads on the player. I don't want to give a free card here, but I also don't want to get CR. I think a bet is reasonable. AAArrghh.. jeah, maybe a check is best. All in favor?

Re: AKs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd also check, but I'm raising the flop and taking the initiative back.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't raise the flop for a few reasons.. the main reason being that I figure to be way ahead or way behind. If I hand like KJo is leading into me, he's a 3:1 dog on the flop, so I'm not very worried about it. If I am already crushed by a set or the made straight, I am losing less. If he bets again on the turn, which I figure these hands to do, I can fold. If they check, I can take back the initiative by betting, which is what I did.



[/ QUOTE ]

I lose less when behind when I just raise the flop. If the guys comes over the top for all his chips I fold. If he calls, I'm checking the turn and then probably folding to any reasonable river value bet. I don't want to get into the spot that you're in where I'm calling half-pot, half-pot, half-pot all the way down.

I don't like the concept of raising for information in NL hold em so here is the way I look at it. You flopped top pair with the best kicker as the pre flop raiser. An opponent bet into you for less than 1/3 pot, and there are people to speak behind you that can get in for a great price if you just call. There's no reason to believe that you don't have the best hand just yet, so just friggin raise it up.

Given the way you played it, I don't mind giving a free card on the turn because it's easy to see which cards are likely to hit his hand. I'd also check the river down on a blank.

Re: AKs.
 

not a fan of flop raise.

KQ, KT, KJ are all calling the flop raise instead of coming over the top.

then you are stuck with big pot on turn with no idea what to do and he leads in to you for 1/2 pot and you are like [censored], is he getting value for his KQ/flopped straight, or blocking for his draw with KT, KJ.

the only hands that possibly 3 bets the flop is set.

Re: AKs.
 

[ QUOTE ]

I lose less when behind when I just raise the flop. If the guys comes over the top for all his chips I fold. If he calls, I'm checking the turn and then probably folding to any reasonable river value bet. I don't want to get into the spot that you're in where I'm calling half-pot, half-pot, half-pot all the way down.


[/ QUOTE ]
I don't like this. I feel you win alot less by folding out his worse hands. By checking the turn you are inducing a river bet from worse hands, but assume only a better hand stayed from your flop reraise and fold to a river bet.

Re: AKs.
 

What if the villain bet $4? $8? I mean jesus he bet $12 -- just raise!

I rarely find myself getting donk bet for half pot on the turn in this scenario, but if I did, I would just fold.

Re: AKs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I lose less when behind when I just raise the flop. If the guys comes over the top for all his chips I fold. If he calls, I'm checking the turn and then probably folding to any reasonable river value bet. I don't want to get into the spot that you're in where I'm calling half-pot, half-pot, half-pot all the way down.


[/ QUOTE ]
I don't like this. I feel you win alot less by folding out his worse hands. By checking the turn you are inducing a river bet from worse hands, but assume only a better hand stayed from your flop reraise and fold to a river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

So basically if everyone checks we should be checking the flop behind? Right? I mean we are only inducing worse hands to fold. That's bad right?

Re: AKs.
 

hmm. didn't see amount.

thought it was more like 2/3 pot.

yeah I think raise is ok.

Re: AKs.
 

i dont raise this flop very often. i will raise it if i think that i will get a free showdown from my villain or if i think he is capable of calling a raise with hands i beat. i dont like a flop raise because it makes the pot big on a scary board and i only have 1 pair.

on the turn i still like a check. i dont think there are enough hands that will get here with a draw that we have to worry about. i the way i see it we have to worry about KJ, KT, 9J, 9T, AJ and a few other wierd hands. i say give him a free card and call a reasonable bet on the river. this way he has a chance to bluff or bet hands we beat.

Re: AKs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
What if the villain bet $4? $8? I mean jesus he bet $12 -- just raise!

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? I have absolutely NO idea what hand Villain has. Raising only bloats a pot in which I'm totally lost and confused. Calling here keeps the pot smaller and charges me less when I'm beat. It will also (usually) slow down a weaker hand and let me know who's in charge by the turn. Raising will most likely blow off worse hands, and like I said earlier, there aren't any dangerous draws. If KJo is betting here, he's already a 3:1 underdog. Is this not alright?

I think playing the flop slow, on a remotely drawless and safe board, against an opponent whose hand I know nothing about is a decent line. Then I use my position and reevaluate the hand on the turn.

Re: AKs.
 

I think you'll find this bet into the pre flop raiser is attempting to accomplish exactly what you allowed it to -- freeze you up when you have the best hand, but would have bet more when checked to.

I expect villain to have a hand like QJ quite often.

Re: AKs.
 

The board is draw heavy, I have no problem raising it right there. If people call, and then bet into me, then I'd give them credit for a strong hand or a good play.

Calling the flop and then folding the turn seems too weak.

Re: AKs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Calling here keeps the pot smaller and charges me less when I'm beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think thats true. If you call a bet on later streets, you end up paying more than you would if you just raised in the first place, and you're still unsure of what he has.

Re: AKs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The board is draw heavy

[/ QUOTE ]

How? It's a rainbow flop with only gutshot draws which are over 3:1 dogs to me. I would be more scared that some dominated paints just outflopped me or someone flopped a straight or set. I do not see a gutshot leading into me here EVER, by the way. I try and keep pots small until I can figure out what the [censored] is going on.


[ QUOTE ]
I don't think thats true. If you call a bet on later streets, you end up paying more than you would if you just raised in the first place, and you're still unsure of what he has.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but a call here will usually slow down the opponent who has a weaker hand. How often do you see people leading on the turn again with some crap like KJ? I don't see it happening that often. And I'm only folding if he bets a good amount. I'll call down another $12 bet and most likely raise.

Re: AKs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think you'll find this bet into the pre flop raiser is attempting to accomplish exactly what you allowed it to -- freeze you up when you have the best hand, but would have bet more when checked to.

I expect villain to have a hand like QJ quite often.

[/ QUOTE ]

if he has QJ i am playing perfectly by calling and checking am i not? i dont get why u want to be so aggro all of the time. the way i play it the pot stays small and i win the most when im ahead. the way u play it u build a huge pot and will have to fold the best hand sometimes and lose more when we dont have the best hand.

Re: AKs.
 

[ QUOTE ]

How? It's a rainbow flop with only a few gutshots. I would be more scared that some dominated paints just outflopped me.

Yes, but a call here will usually slow down the opponent who has a weaker hand. How often do you see people leading on the turn again with some crap like KJ? I don't see it happening that often. And I'm only folding if he bets a good amount. I'll call down another $12 bet and most likely raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I definitely see KJ betting again on turn. As would K10. If someone calls behind me to such a weak bet, I expect them to be drawing. So if the turn doesn't make any hands, I bet again.

I maintain, the weak bet on the flop COULD indicate to me that he wants to see a draw cheaply. If you call, you're further allowing yourself to be bluffed on the turn when you don't have a drawing hand, you have a made hand.

Re: AKs.
 

[ QUOTE ]

the way u play it u build a huge pot and will have to fold the best hand sometimes and lose more when we dont have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the contrary, I think thats EXACTLY what calling and checking does. If he bets on the turn, you either fold (which could very well be folding the good hand) or call (which could just be spewing chips, because you have no idea where you stand)

Re: AKs.
 

What is the minimum amount that you are going to let your opponent bet so that you won't get scared and freeze up with TPTK? $10? $8? $6?

Re: AKs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I definitely see KJ betting again on turn. As would K10.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. I guess this is where our opinions differ. I do not see KJo or KTo being likely candidates for cold-calling a 6xBB preflop raise, and then leading into the PFR TWICE, after he has called their bet on a tricky painted flop.


[ QUOTE ]
What is the minimum amount that you are going to let your opponent bet so that you won't get scared and freeze up with TPTK? $10? $8? $6?

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to look at the situation of the hand, not just the amount being bet. He cold-called a 6xBB preflop raise OOP. I think this is either 99, AQ or KQ. These are his most likely holdings IMO. Why would KJo lead into the PFR, as well as 500 people here and then fire again once called? Sure, being called isn't the same as being raised, but it's always scary.

Again, I guess our opinions are just different on how our opponents play. This is fine. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: AKs.
 

I find it interesting that all the reasons you give for NOT raising the flop would seem to dictate NOT betting the turn, which you did for some reason. Especially considering that a hand like KJ is a 10:1 dog now.

Re: AKs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I definitely see KJ betting again on turn. As would K10.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. I guess this is where our opinions differ. I do not see KJo or KTo being likely candidates for cold-calling a 6xBB preflop raise, and then leading into the PFR TWICE, after he has called their bet on a tricky painted flop.


[ QUOTE ]
What is the minimum amount that you are going to let your opponent bet so that you won't get scared and freeze up with TPTK? $10? $8? $6?

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to look at the situation of the hand, not just the amount being bet. He cold-called a 6xBB preflop raise OOP. I think this is either 99, AQ or KQ. These are his most likely holdings IMO. Why would KJo lead into the PFR, as well as 500 people here and then fire again once called? Sure, being called isn't the same as being raised, but it's always scary.

Again, I guess our opinions are just different on how our opponents play. This is fine. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said, I would expect that the bet is intended to freeze me up when he has a hand like QJ and doesn't want to call a big bet. Notice that you are neither way ahead of nor way behind QJ.

Re: AKs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

the way u play it u build a huge pot and will have to fold the best hand sometimes and lose more when we dont have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the contrary, I think thats EXACTLY what calling and checking does. If he bets on the turn, you either fold (which could very well be folding the good hand) or call (which could just be spewing chips, because you have no idea where you stand)

[/ QUOTE ]

i understand this point of view, but heres how i see it. if i raise the flop it is likely to cost me the same ammount as if i call the flop and them call the size bet im willing to call on the turn. i think it is highly likely he checks to me on the turn. and i think he may bet hands i beat again on the turn even if i raise. i think this hand all really comes down to how u read the villain.

Re: AKs.
 

As the tension mounds, I thought I'd say these discussions are what makes poker fun and interesting...there's always lots to think about and different ways for hands to be played [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: AKs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I find it interesting that all the reasons you give for NOT raising the flop would seem to dictate NOT betting the turn, which you did for some reason. Especially considering that a hand like KJ is a 10:1 dog now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm really not sure how you aren't getting this yet. To be brief, I bet the turn because our opponent checked and signaled weakness. With a hand such as KJo or something, yes, he's a pretty big dog. But giving a free card is giving him a free shot at cracking my hand, a definite no no. On the flop it was different, he lead into a big field and a PFR, his hand strength was unknown to me, but I still had TPTK. Folding there is too weak, raising is too aggro.

Like I said, I think it's better to call the flop and evaluate the turn. I did that and he check-minraised me. I think he has AQ or 99. If he had AQ, my call on the flop was alright given the circumstances, he was an 11:1 dog, no huge harm in not raising there. If he had 99, excellent, I didn't raise a hand that had me crushed. I have position, I decided to slow down on the flop and utilize it on the turn.


[ QUOTE ]
Like I said, I would expect that the bet is intended to freeze me up when he has a hand like QJ and doesn't want to call a big bet. Notice that you are neither way ahead of nor way behind QJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but again, I do not see QJ leading here. He should expect to get raised by me, not only called. A 6xBB preflop raiser should have a very strong hand, especially on this board. I would say QJo would check-call. Again, just matters of opinion.

Anyways, I obviously folded. I'm reasonably sure he had 99.

Re: AKs.
 

Also this pot isn't even heads up. You are letting people in behind you getting like 7 to 1 with cheese hands like T9.

Re: AKs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find it interesting that all the reasons you give for NOT raising the flop would seem to dictate NOT betting the turn, which you did for some reason. Especially considering that a hand like KJ is a 10:1 dog now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm really not sure how you aren't getting this yet. To be brief, I bet the turn because our opponent checked and signaled weakness. With a hand such as KJo or something, yes, he's a pretty big dog. But giving a free card is giving him a free shot at cracking my hand, a definite no no. On the flop it was different, he lead into a big field and a PFR, his hand strength was unknown to me, but I still had TPTK. Folding there is too weak, raising is too aggro.

Like I said, I think it's better to call the flop and evaluate the turn. I did that and he check-minraised me. I think he has AQ or 99. If he had AQ, my call on the flop was alright given the circumstances, he was an 11:1 dog, no huge harm in not raising there. If he had 99, excellent, I didn't raise a hand that had me crushed. I have position, I decided to slow down on the flop and utilize it on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

A free shot at cracking your hand? Are you afraid he'll river a set of deuces?

Re: AKs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
A free shot at cracking your hand? Are you afraid he'll river a set of deuces?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't even know what the [censored] this means. All I was saying is that giving a free card in this spot is ALWAYS wrong. He has checked and told me I have the best hand. Checking here gives him infinite odds. Even if he's a 8:1 dog, giving a free card when he's TELLING ME he is weak is wrong. I have to charge him something.

Re: AKs.
 

Only when the chance of getting check-raised is 0.0%.

Re: AKs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A free shot at cracking your hand? Are you afraid he'll river a set of deuces?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't even know what the [censored] this means. All I was saying is that giving a free card in this spot is ALWAYS wrong. He has checked and told me I have the best hand. Checking here gives him infinite odds. Even if he's a 8:1 dog, giving a free card when he's TELLING ME he is weak is wrong. I have to charge him something.

[/ QUOTE ]

then why aren't you raising the flop?

I think the difference in actions between the flop and the turn is no good.

Re: AKs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A free shot at cracking your hand? Are you afraid he'll river a set of deuces?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't even know what the [censored] this means. All I was saying is that giving a free card in this spot is ALWAYS wrong. He has checked and told me I have the best hand. Checking here gives him infinite odds. Even if he's a 8:1 dog, giving a free card when he's TELLING ME he is weak is wrong. I have to charge him something.

[/ QUOTE ]

then why aren't you raising the flop?

I think the difference in actions between the flop and the turn is no good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is exactly my point. He's so worried about playing a medium sized pot in a marginal situation, so he just calls. Then one of the WORST cards hits, and now all of the sudden he wants to "protect" his hand.

Re: AKs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I lose less when behind when I just raise the flop. If the guys comes over the top for all his chips I fold. If he calls, I'm checking the turn and then probably folding to any reasonable river value bet. I don't want to get into the spot that you're in where I'm calling half-pot, half-pot, half-pot all the way down.


[/ QUOTE ]
I don't like this. I feel you win alot less by folding out his worse hands. By checking the turn you are inducing a river bet from worse hands, but assume only a better hand stayed from your flop reraise and fold to a river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

So basically if everyone checks we should be checking the flop behind? Right? I mean we are only inducing worse hands to fold. That's bad right?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Lets not be stupid here. A 1/3 I probably PSR, is it right to do? Maybe. Think about it. A 1/3 bet is either a weak holding or lock hand (QJ, K10, KJ or KQ in most cases). Thus it's a WA/WB situation, as opposed to being checked to where we are ahead most times and either want a call when we bet or a fold, as its unlikely to have a free card make an opponent a second best hand. We are probably ahead most times, but a reraise folds out worse hands, whereas calling and checking the turn induces a raise or call on the river when you are best.

Re: AKs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I lose less when behind when I just raise the flop. If the guys comes over the top for all his chips I fold. If he calls, I'm checking the turn and then probably folding to any reasonable river value bet. I don't want to get into the spot that you're in where I'm calling half-pot, half-pot, half-pot all the way down.


[/ QUOTE ]
I don't like this. I feel you win alot less by folding out his worse hands. By checking the turn you are inducing a river bet from worse hands, but assume only a better hand stayed from your flop reraise and fold to a river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

So basically if everyone checks we should be checking the flop behind? Right? I mean we are only inducing worse hands to fold. That's bad right?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Lets not be stupid here. A 1/3 I probably PSR, is it right to do? Maybe. Think about it. A 1/3 bet is either a weak holding or lock hand (QJ, K10, KJ or KQ in most cases). Thus it's a WA/WB situation, as opposed to being checked to where we are ahead most times and either want a call when we bet or a fold, as its unlikely to have a free card make an opponent a second best hand. We are probably ahead most times, but a reraise folds out worse hands, whereas calling and checking the turn induces a raise or call on the river when you are best. Please use applicable explanations rather than invalid exagerations, it's for the benefit of everyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are we way ahead of QJ?