Stuck
 

So I’m stuck pretty bad this month. Three-hundred big bets and change, plus about $5K in assorted tournament entry fees. I’ve had downswings of that magnitude in the past but this one is particularly obnoxious for a couple of reasons. First, a good chunk of that was at 50/100 through 100/200, so the swing is larger than I’m used to in purely cash terms. Second, I actually haven’t played many hands of poker this month, between having my computer in the shop and resorting to one-tabling for a bit, spending the better part of a week in Vegas, and preparing for an upcoming move. So I’ve experienced this downswing s-l-o-w-l-y.

There are a couple of pieces of good news. This is money I could afford to lose. And I don’t feel particularly burned out on poker.

Nevertheless, I feel stuck in another sense of the term, in that I don’t know that my game is improving. The thing is, I actually feel like I’m playing reasonably well. I’ve always done things somewhat differently than other posters, calling down more in heads-up pots and generally playing a bit faster, and this has always been a high-variance style, but also one that has worked for me. I *have* consciously been defending my blinds a bit more, but I believe these are +EV plays and I hesitate to go back and tighten up for the sake of reducing variance.

What worries me, though, is that to the extent I have technical leaks in my game (I’m aware of some non-technical leaks like game selection, and playing too long sessions), I’m not sure that I’d be able to recognize them. This is especially confusing since I’m also not sure I’m doing anything substantially wrong at all.

I have considered perhaps playing some other games for a bit, most likely cash NL or some medium stud high, as sometimes this can be a good way to re-calibrate your card sense. But it can also be confusing, not to mention that it can trade-off with playing in games where I have a higher EV. I’ve thought about hiring Tommy Angelo. ;-) I’ve thought about taking a week off, which I might have to do anyway depending on the Internet situation in my new apartment. I’ve thought about moving down to 15/30 for a bit, but my ego hates that idea. The weird thing is that the downswing, as well as playing against some tougher competition, has really underscored my resolve to continue to improve. But I don’t know where to find the path toward improvement.

Thanks for listening, any comments appreciated.

-Nate

Re: Stuck
 

try inter 3/6, you can always make it back if you flop sets

Re: Stuck
 

[ QUOTE ]
I’ve thought about hiring Tommy Angelo. ;-)

[/ QUOTE ]

Nate,

I don't know a whole lot about your game or the levels you play, with the exception of the advice you post here, but I think that might be a very good bet for you.

Rob

Re: Stuck
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I’ve thought about hiring Tommy Angelo. ;-)

[/ QUOTE ]

Nate,

I don't know a whole lot about your game or the levels you play, with the exception of the advice you post here, but I think that might be a very good bet for you.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, and it will get you to Northern California which is a very good thing too.

Re: Stuck
 

Judging from all your great posts you have a very good understanding of the game and a drive to get better. I'm sure you'll pull through soon.

Do you feel like you're getting outplayed at the big limits? If not I'd say give it a little longer 1-2 tabling before you try to step down.

Re: Stuck
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I’ve thought about hiring Tommy Angelo. ;-)

[/ QUOTE ]

Nate,

I don't know a whole lot about your game or the levels you play, with the exception of the advice you post here, but I think that might be a very good bet for you.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, and it will get you to Northern California which is a very good thing too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which means I can hang out and get drunk with Nate more which is a very, very good thing, too.

Re: Stuck
 

I'm gonna contribute to this thread, only because its named after me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Its pretty hard to play your A game when you're badly stuck and you're thinking about being stuck. You may deny its affecting your game, but it seems a lot of the time we have a post like this (like davidross's for example) the OP denies its affected their game until a few weeks go buy, they get perspective and thats when they admit it had affected their play.

I can't think of any advice other than play a less challenging limit/game, whatever, until you've broken the back of the downswing and you're no longer thinking about it. Save challenging yourself for when you're mentally relishing the challenge.

Re: Stuck
 

Hey Nate!

It seems at the higher limits many players start to know one
another, as I imagine the line for 100/200 is *slightly*
smaller than the 1/2! These people love to 3-bet each other
with 94o and push the newly entering players around with
what amounts to a very confusing style. There is much better
hand reading and play reading going on, and the weakest hands
being shown take pots...they KNOW when your AK missed...!

That being said, I think it was Giga who mentioned the -EV of
training people to join his limits (albeit he was referring to NL
Tourneys I believe). Barry G. is not going to show you how
to work over the SHOE and HORSE games he plays, simply
because he will not train his "enemies". I have only been
lurking/posting for about a year, but have noticed that as
you progress along the path fewer people want to share the
master-level techniques they either stumbled upon or
ground-out over the years.

At the highest levels, I believe the cards matter very little and
your opponents' tendencies, your read of their play and your
vault of hands you have played against "X" opponent is
paramount. I am not a High-Limit player, but I share your
frustration about honing your game beyond math-science
poker into deep-level and game theory poker. If you indeed
find a path to this info....please share!

I enjoy your posts and your contributions, Best of "Luck"

-ZEN

Re: Stuck
 

Nate,

You rule and have made me a lot of money and blah blah blah...

anyways as far as the downswing, that blows. I'm in a similar situation right now not in terms of BBs or $, but in terms of being put to the test as far as my biggest downswing at my biggest limit. so youre probaly frustrated which is never fun

as far as the learning, how do you find yourself learning the most at this point in your game? Are you reading many books? is 2+2 teaching you a lot (you seem to take the role of teacher a lot here, which is what makes me ask). or are you more in an introspective think about your game mode and reviewing using PT?

I guess I have no real advice, just sparking some discussion. thanks for posting

Re: Stuck
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I’ve thought about hiring Tommy Angelo. ;-)

[/ QUOTE ]

Nate,

I don't know a whole lot about your game or the levels you play, with the exception of the advice you post here, but I think that might be a very good bet for you.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, and it will get you to Northern California which is a very good thing too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which means I can suck Nate's knob which is a very, very good thing, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP.

Re: Stuck
 

stud's always been my favorite game but i haven't played it in a LONG time. i've been playing a lot of stud and NL lately (new to NL). both are good ways to take down entitlement disorders. in stud, drawouts are super common (322 beating AAK with a 2flush and that sort of thing). in NL, you get a much better acceptance of 97s being "the better hand" against aces on a 568 flop. playing limit it never feels like it is, "it just happened to beat you that time" if you know what i mean.

Re: Stuck
 

I admitted that in the trip report thread. You're not putting a flag anywhere by bringing this up.

Re: Stuck
 

[ QUOTE ]
Judging from all your great posts you have a very good understanding of the game and a drive to get better. I'm sure you'll pull through soon.

Do you feel like you're getting outplayed at the big limits? If not I'd say give it a little longer 1-2 tabling before you try to step down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not outplayed exactly. I do feel however like there's one thing in particular that I need to work on, which is varying my tempo some more. I tend to be too much of a momentum player e.g.

raise preflop ... zzz ... bet flop ... zzz ... bet turn ... zzz ... oops he check-raised now I need to think

In other words, I probably need to do more checking, both with and without the lead, and with both good and bad hands.

The thing is this sort of change is going to require an adjustment period, which could be bumpy.

Re: Stuck
 

[ QUOTE ]
I admitted that in the trip report thread. You're not putting a flag anywhere by bringing this up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please don't cut off an old man from his petty amusements.

Re: Stuck
 

[ QUOTE ]
raise preflop ... zzz ... bet flop ... zzz ... bet turn ... zzz ... oops he check-raised now I need to think

[/ QUOTE ]

I am having a very unlucky 3 weeks period and am noticing the same thing about myself.

I spent a lot of time analyzing it and at least up to the 30-60 level I think (but am not certain) that the rhythm you describe above may just be due to a string of bad luck and not a string of being outplayed.

In other words when I am running well they fold or don't hit their five outers and I feel like a genius, when I am running bad they checkraise me, perhaps out of trickiness but perhaps because they just keep hitting.

Re: Stuck
 

Hey Nate,

Learn no-limit.

ML4L

Re: Stuck
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Judging from all your great posts you have a very good understanding of the game and a drive to get better. I'm sure you'll pull through soon.

Do you feel like you're getting outplayed at the big limits? If not I'd say give it a little longer 1-2 tabling before you try to step down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not outplayed exactly. I do feel however like there's one thing in particular that I need to work on, which is varying my tempo some more. I tend to be too much of a momentum player e.g.

raise preflop ... zzz ... bet flop ... zzz ... bet turn ... zzz ... oops he check-raised now I need to think

In other words, I probably need to do more checking, both with and without the lead, and with both good and bad hands.

The thing is this sort of change is going to require an adjustment period, which could be bumpy.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is something that i need to work on too. this SS strategy is good for all levels to 30-60 online. But higher up that it seems like everyone knows how to play well postflop, and they immediately peg your style.

if it makes you feel any better, i just hit a 130BB downswing at the party 30-60. I'm gonna take three days off and review some hands, but mostly get drunk.

like really drunk.

Re: Stuck
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Nate,

Learn no-limit.

ML4L

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm considering this also, but the only thing that prevents me of going back there is the currently profitability of the party nl games. Do you think is resonable to make $200/hr playing $1K 6max on party with say 3 tables?Playing NL is more enjoyable since your always folding,folding but on limit 6max its raise,raise, call, call the burnout factor its much bigger, also many people say(im not sure its true) that the fishness in nl is going down faster than in limit. what are your thoughts?

Re: Stuck
 

you're not pushing 30 also are u? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

-ZEN

Re: Stuck
 

[ QUOTE ]
I spent a lot of time analyzing it and at least up to the 30-60 level I think (but am not certain) that the rhythm you describe above may just be due to a string of bad luck and not a string of being outplayed.

In other words when I am running well they fold or don't hit their five outers and I feel like a genius, when I am running bad they checkraise me, perhaps out of trickiness but perhaps because they just keep hitting.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been looking at this a lot myself lately too. I also don't play higher than 30/60 yet, but I have found that a lot of players will deliberately take slightly the worst of it - if they have a good read on you and think you will fold without any kind of hand.

Calling down BS with AK high is not usually a good idea, but sometimes needs to be done.

My style is similar to yours - borderline LAG. This tends to make people slow down and play back at you harder when they really have a hand. If you're getting raised a lot (on the turn and river), you need to find out if it's just against you or if they play most people like this.

Watching for a while should help you figure out who's got your number and who doesn't. You may need to change styles for a while if you are always against the same opponents.

Try playing rocklike for a couple of hours, then opening it up for 15 minutes, then reverting to rock again for a while, etc.

You are a good player and don't really need any strategy advice (IMO). I think you do need to work more on your metagame skills and image plays, including finding out if you have tells or not.

I'm sure you've experienced getting the rhythm of a game to the point of knowing exactly what's going on all the time. If you're new to these limits it may just be a matter of not having enough critical information.

If these are live games, you may just want to railbird for a while to see if you can pick up anything that you can't focus on while you're sitting at the table.

Pretend one of the players hired you to coach him and look for all of the things he does right or wrong. Then move to the next guy and do it again. Then go to the car and write it all down.

Then do it to yourself and your own game.

I think you'll get through this in no time.

I don't think you should move down unless you need the money. You may be better off not playing and just watching for a while like I mentioned above.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

I hope this was of some help.

Dov

Re: Stuck
 

[ QUOTE ]
in NL, you get a much better acceptance of 97s being "the better hand" against aces on a 568 flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why the fish get broken so quickly in NL.

They don't differentiate between flops of 568 and 966.

I know that you know what you're doing, but players need good post flop skills and solid reads to play small connectors well in NL.

This is just a disclaimer for the people who don't know who you are - as in don't try this at home until you really KNOW what you're doing.

Re: Stuck
 

It hurts to be stuck so much, but I have a feeling this will improve your game.

Re: Stuck
 

Thanks for the honesty of the post. I'm not qualified to comment at those limits but when I read your posts here you seem to have a tendency to get a lot of money in the pot with mediocre hands. You could always try being a bit more ABC for a while - should throw everyone off!

Re: Stuck
 

[ QUOTE ]
Which means I can hang out and get drunk with Nate more which is a very, very good thing, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

POTverylongtime!

Re: Stuck
 

I'd selfishly love to see you play some tripple draw. There are some good math posts that occur in other poker on the game, and I'd certainly enjoy your input. On the plus side, it is a pretty straight forward game from a technical standpoint, and it offers some of the cleaner game theory scenarios in poker. On the down side, there are often no games going, but on the plus side there are often some very juicy looking games (many above my current bankroll [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] ).

Re: Stuck
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the honesty of the post. I'm not qualified to comment at those limits but when I read your posts here you seem to have a tendency to get a lot of money in the pot with mediocre hands. You could always try being a bit more ABC for a while - should throw everyone off!

[/ QUOTE ]

ABC is the worst thing you can do at these limits.

If you want a winrate below 0, then play ABC. This is why nobody does that there.

You need to understand that the hand values change depending on the game, opponent, your image, etc.

What looks like a mediocre hand in one situation can be a monster in another.

Example:

30/60 Live
Both EP players are locals who know everyone in the poker room.

QQ in MP.

UTG Raises, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 Reraises, You cap, folded back to original raisers who both call.

Flop AJ3.

UTG bets, UTG+2 calls

Your action?

Hand 2 (same game)

QQ on the Button

folded to you, you raise, SB folds, BB calls

Flop AJ3,

BB checks

Your action?

These examples are just to illustrate the point. If you want to extend it, use the same hands, but different games.

What do you do with these in the Party 2/4, 5/10sh, 20/40 full?

You see how the hands can be marginal or not depending on the situation?

This is just the action situation. When you factor in the other things I listed above, things can look very different.

Just in case this came out the wrong way, I want to make clear that I am not 'coming down' on you. I just wanted to point out that many of the situations that you may be finding marginal may not, in fact, be so.

Re: Stuck
 

[ QUOTE ]

ABC is the worst thing you can do at these limits.
If you want a winrate below 0, then play ABC. This is why nobody does that there.


[/ QUOTE ]

Paluka would say your wrong

Re: Stuck
 

Taking a few weeks off since you are moving seems like a great idea. Read few books during that time.

I like playing different games at different sites:
PLO
Limit and no limit hold em
Omaha hi lo
I also fool around with stud, tiple draw and pinnaple

And all formats:
Cash
Tourn
SitNGos
MTT

This keeps it fun and if I'm running bad I'll switch games/formats for a while.

You may do this already, but studying hand histories during a break may let you see things you don't see in real time. Seeing all the show downs of your opps can give you insight into their play, you are not going to get multi-tabling.

Good luck
Thanks for all your good posts

Re: Stuck
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I admitted that in the trip report thread. You're not putting a flag anywhere by bringing this up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please don't cut off an old man from his petty amusements.

[/ QUOTE ]

is this all our two best thread hijackers can do here?

Re: Stuck
 

How many tables are you playing? Have you considered playing fewer tables and working on hand reading and play balancing?

Also, some of the problems you describe with pounding too much are probably just running bad. Opponents are more tenacious bettors are tougher to play against:

6-handed game, UTG open raises JJ and I call in the BB w/ KTs.

Flop(4.5 SB) comes
AQ5 w/ a backdoor flush draw.

Against an opponent who checks hands like JJ on the turn, I'm going to call liberally because I get free cards when he tries to get to showdown with mediocre hands. I can also value bet more on the river when I hit a King and he checks behind.

Against an opponent who is going to continue to pound marginal hands and semi-bluffs like KJ on the turn, I am going to fold the flop because I'm not going to get as many free cards and I'm going to get charged more when catch a King and I am up against an Ace--I can't be sure he isn't betting an underpair.

I think pounding is a good basic style even in tough games(though I only play up to 30/60). I agree that you can increase your EV by mixing up your play, but you probably don't need a stylistic overhaul.

Re: Stuck
 

A flush still beats a straight though, right?

For a player whose image is very non-ABC it would be very profitable to switch styles for a while.

Re: Stuck
 

[ QUOTE ]
How many tables are you playing? Have you considered playing fewer tables and working on hand reading and play balancing?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've played four tables for a long time now.

I did feel like I was thinking particularly well when one-tabling (obviously) in Vegas. Reducing tables online isn't something I'm super keen to do, since if anything it tends to make my concentration drift more and make me more conscious of the swings, but stepping down from four to three might not be a bad idea.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, some of the problems you describe with pounding too much are probably just running bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, and the example you cite is a good one. It might not be a matter of needing to change my game in general as much as changing pace when table conditions warrant.

Re: Stuck
 

not that Tommy isn't an exceptional player, but how much does he know about the nature of the super high, short handed games you play when his main game is the ABC=$$ 20/40?

Re: Stuck
 

[ QUOTE ]


ABC is the worst thing you can do at these limits.

If you want a winrate below 0, then play ABC. This is why nobody does that there.


[/ QUOTE ]

Schneids and I play a pretty ABC game these days and are killing the mid/high limit games.

You can get so much value out of your hands just playing them overly straightforwardly versus the overaggro high limit players who are stuck on raise and call down too much. It does make for some weird feeling calldowns, but these players just try to get you to fold all the time, so pump your good hands against them when you have them, just call them with your decent/mediocre ones and dump when you don't have anything. At first these goofballs gave me fits but it's becomming more and more clear how to play them.

Great post
 

Terrific post.

The point that piqued my interest is that your game has approached a level where it is more difficult for you to find holes in your own play. As they get smaller it's going to be tougher to see how the marginal situations you might modify affect your win rate, since by definition they aren't frequent/expensive enough to come up all that often and sample sizes grow slowly. Since the answer to a lot of poker questions is "learn to play better," you are kind of stuck. In other pursuits, this is where you'd definitely want to get a mentor or coach. Here I think it's kind of tough since, again, the places you are making real theoretical mistakes are rarer.

OTOH, an ever growing percentage of mistakes we make as we get better are going to have to do with psychological factors. I know that gets pooh-poohed a lot here, since it doesn't lend itself well to the logical discussions the typical 2+2er is good at. But looking at other "sports" where physicality can almost take a back seat to mental preparedness, it's pretty clear to me that poker is likely not an exception to the rule. Mental preparation, exercise, nutrition, etc., in addition to being solidly proven to improve mental acuity, is going to have enough benefits to general well-being that it may be worth a shot even if they don't help your game. OTOH, improved thinking in turn may help you identify technical holes in your game.

I have some experience in this, but have some friends/mentors who have a lot. I'll shoot you an e-mail or post some possible suggestions in the psychology forum if you like.

BTW, some of this is stating the obvious, and I don't mean to condescend; I just think you need to provide an argument before mentioning psychological/physiological factors in poker [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Stuck
 

learn to play NLHE, and learn PLO. at your level this might not make a huge impact, but learning PLO really helped me. start out smaller in PLO than you would in NL, it plays bigger. when I get burned out I play stud8.

--turnipmonster

Re: Stuck
 

This is crazy, every single paragraph you posted is exactly what is happening to me and my thoughts apart from i've also totally lost interest in poker. I just decided to quit for a few weeks. Ray Zee should add this to stages of a poker players life.

Re: Stuck
 

[ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why the fish get broken so quickly in NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me tell ya, there are a lot of fish and they keep coming from lord knows where.

NL pwnzzzrrsss..

Lawrence

Re: Stuck
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why the fish get broken so quickly in NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me tell ya, there are a lot of fish and they keep coming from lord knows where.


[/ QUOTE ]

The 30/60 game? [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Stuck
 

The 30/60 game?

Every game, any level.