Tough lesson learned re: mucking after showdown in a B&M game
 

Was playing 5-10 limit at Empress in Joliet, IL tonight when I was dealt AQ in late position. UTG+1 (villain) raises to 10. I call, as do 5 others.

Flop comes A-10-8 rainbow. Villain bets out. I just call, worried somewhat about AK. 2 others call.

Turn is a 9. Villain bets out again. I call again. The other 2 fold, and it's heads up for the river, which is a J. There were no flush possibilities.

Obviously (or so one would think), I had made a gutshot straight, and assuming that villain didn't have KQ (possible but unlikely given his betting), I had the nuts. But I was so focused on my aces that I didn't even notice. I can't give a better explanation than that.

Villain bets out again, I call. As the first to bet, of course, he shows first. I am preparing to flip my cards over when he announces "2 pair" and turns over AJ. AJ??? I think to myself. Then I angrily flick my cards into the muck, thinking I got rivered when I had the best hand all along.

As the pot is being pushed over to villain, a guy to my left asks me, "AK, huh?" "No, AQ," I say. His eyes grew wide. "Dude, you just threw away a straight." I thought he meant an ace-high straight. "No, there wasn't a king out there," I said, and then the cards came back to me: 8, 9, 10, J. . . .

I had thrown away a $120 pot. And, considering that villain had made two pair on the river, had I raised with my straight, he certainly would have called and might have re-raised. This would have made for at least a $140 pot, maybe more.

The lost pot stung, as did the embarrassment, since I've been playing long enough to not make such a stupid mistake in a live game. But the lesson I grudgingly took from this was, don't muck your cards at a showdown, until you know you are beat! Had I tossed my hand face-up onto the table, the cards would have spoken, and I would have only had to deal with the embarrassment, not the lost money.

I'm not saying one should always show; obviously, a failed bluff attempt on the river is not something you would necessarily want to advertise. But sometimes, in the heat of the moment, even an experienced player will miss things. Allowing the cards to declare the best hand compensates for such a lapse.

This isn't intended as a bad beat story, just something to consider before you toss your hand away after showdown.

Re: Tough lesson learned re: mucking after showdown in a B&M game
 

Don't be an idiot.

Got it. Thanks for the lesson.

Just Joking [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

It's happened to everyone. Just make sure it doesn't happen again.

Re: Tough lesson learned re: mucking after showdown in a B&M game
 

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Don't be an idiot.

Got it. Thanks for the lesson.



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P.S. Failing to raise the flop was bad.

Re: Tough lesson learned re: mucking after showdown in a B&M game
 

i really dont' want to be the bad guy here but you can't read the board and you play 5/10? Is there drinking involved here? lol

Re: Tough lesson learned re: mucking after showdown in a B&M game
 

My first time in a B&M, after the river card I bet, but I thought everybody had folded, I was to the right of the dealer and the guy on the other side of the dealer apparently called, but I thought everyone folded, so I threw my cards toward the muck and the guy turned over a hand that I had beat.

I said, "Oh He had me beat anyway, I was bluffing" to try to save face.. Shoulda been my pot if I was paying attention better.

It happens to everybody.

Re: Tough lesson learned re: mucking after showdown in a B&M game
 

First B&M trip, to Vegas: I mucked when my AJ "lost" to villain's AQ, but had I shown my cards or looked at the board more closely, I would have been happy to chop the pot with a board of A55xK (K on river). Pot lost, lesson learned.

Re: Tough lesson learned re: mucking after showdown in a B&M game
 

When I won my very first B&M pot, I didn't even know I had won. I had cut my teeth playing $0.25/$0.50 and $0.50/$1 on Planet Poker (anyone remember that one?). My wife and I were visiting Vegas for the first time, and she convinced me to try $3/$6 at the Mirage.

Anyway, I folded for a while; finally I got Presto and limped in. The board was ragged, and it was heads-up, so I check-called with it thinking I was up against overcards. At the end, the other guy checks behind and flips over one pair with J-9 sooted, and I disgustedly show my fives. Only when the dealer pushes the pot to me do I realize that I had a 6-high straight.

Re: Tough lesson learned re: mucking after showdown in a B&M game
 

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Don't be an idiot.

Got it. Thanks for the lesson.



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P.S. Failing to raise the flop was bad.

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Yes, it absolutely was.

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i really dont' want to be the bad guy here but you can't read the board and you play 5/10? Is there drinking involved here? lol

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I've played at that casino 2-3 times a week at that level for almost a year. Like I said, I can't explain how I missed the straight. I NEVER miss something like that. And no, alcohol wasn't involved (lol). I wouldn't have posted this if I thought the mistake was simply the consequence of a few too many Coronas.

Re: Tough lesson learned re: mucking after showdown in a B&M game
 

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i really dont' want to be the bad guy here but you can't read the board and you play 5/10? Is there drinking involved here? lol

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You've NEVER misread a board? I've been playing for a long time, and I lost a big tournament pot because I misread a board giving me a higher queens up hand five or six months ago. It's just a mistake. Everybody a) makes them, and b) should learn from them.

Re: Tough lesson learned re: mucking after showdown in a B&M game
 

I was playing 1/2NL at Foxwoods the other day. On the button with 6h 7h. Flop is 10s, 5h, 3d. Checked to me and I check, I began thinking what cards give me a draw, any heart, any 8, 9,.....

The next card is a 4c and before I know it 2 people are all in for +130 and I prepare to fold my rags! One of the all in guys sees me and says "hey it's not your turn" Now I hadn't mucked out of turn, I was just showing all signs that is what was about to happen.

His comment though made me look at the hand again. That is when I realized I held the nut straight. Thanks to him I called and it held up against slowplayed AA preflop and 55 on the flop.

Re: Tough lesson learned re: mucking after showdown in a B&M game
 

Playing 5-10 limit at Brantford, I had KT in LP and flopped K-K-x, T, A. It was thankfully a big pot by the river and it being my second time in a B&M, I valiantly threw my cards face up in the middle of the table for all to see. The dealer almost took them away until half the table begged for the pot to be pushed to me! Rook move...

Re: Tough lesson learned re: mucking after showdown in a B&M game
 

Ouch.

Is the 1% chance of this happening worth the value of the information you save by mucking? I would argue no, not in this game, because with five in a raised pot no one gives a damn what you're playing because they'll give action anyway. (Sounds like the Empress $5/10 hasn't changed a bit since I played there their first week last October.)

Yes, in bigger games it's good to protect information by not showing a loser. But here I'd argue it barely matters. I still muck my losers and I play loose $2/4 through $4/8 games, but I try take an extra moment to read out all possible straights or one-card flushes because I've read too many stories like this one. This story may cause me to show a few hands more when there's anything close to a straight.

Thanks for sharing this.

Re: Tough lesson learned re: mucking after showdown in a B&M game
 

Raise the flop or turn.

Back to the point: I've done that. It does suck. That was the story where the old crag sucking a coffin nail takes a big drag then asks me in a loud, nicotine infested throaty voice, "What's the matter, don't you know how to play poker?" Wonderful entertainment for the whole table at my expense. Thank you, I do 2 shows nightly...

Friggin' bitch. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

b

btw...One thing that's really fun, is watching someone fold the hand to you as they are flashing their cards and you know they don't see that they have you beat. Yet, some on here think that's unethical and you should call his hand even though he hasn't tabled it yet.

Re: Tough lesson learned re: mucking after showdown in a B&M game
 

This is somewhat related to this thread. Buddy of mine is playing another 3/6 table. I get up from my table to watch him for a minute. He's a non-posting 2+2er.

Long story short, he's got aces in the hole and nervously goes to the river in an enormous pot. There are flush and str8 draws all over this paired board. When all the villians flipped there cards over, he realized he'd won. He stood up, yelled "SHIP IT", tossed his aces on the table and watched helplessly as one of them continued to the other side of the table, up & over the rail, and onto the floor. Dead hand.

Flip and pin. After seeing that, I now carry a hammer and nails. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Onaflag..........

Re: Tough lesson learned re: mucking after showdown in a B&M game
 

Tourney at the palms, old "expirienced" player mucked his hand when an opponent called "ten high" on the river of AAQQJ.

Re: Tough lesson learned re: mucking after showdown in a B&M game
 

I saw that one time when it was set over set. Ks against Qs. Big pot as they were both jamming it. Qs tables his hand. Ks stands up and proudly spikes his hand onto the table. Except, one card caught an edge and flew off the table. This card never made itself visible to my side of the table as we just saw the backside of it. The guy nearly jumped the table to try and get it as it was in the air. He still thought he won as he was still proudly conversing with a bud while it was all worked out.

Floor was called, his hand was ruled dead, chaos ensued from the guy. God he was pissed. 2 hands later, he was a little calmed down, he gets his QQ beat by KK from the same guy who had the set of Qs. He gets up and goes to the cage, across the room. You could hear him tearing into the floorman for about 15 mins.

Table your hand.

b

Re: Tough lesson learned re: mucking after showdown in a B&M game
 

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Is the 1% chance of this happening worth the value of the information you save by mucking? I would argue no, not in this game, because with five in a raised pot no one gives a damn what you're playing because they'll give action anyway. (Sounds like the Empress $5/10 hasn't changed a bit since I played there their first week last October.)

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No, it hasn't. 5-10 is decent stakes in most casinos, but at the Empress it's as fishy as a 1-2 or 2-4 game anywhere else. During the day, the retirees fill the tables, and they see flops with anything. I stopped by today for an hour over lunch and lost with sets twice to an old lady who called preflop with garbage and made straights both time. Nice enough woman. After demolishing my hard-earned set for a second time, she started telling me stories about her grandchildren, which fortunately defused my building urge to strangle her.

Re: Tough lesson learned re: mucking after showdown in a B&M game
 

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He stood up, yelled "SHIP IT", tossed his aces on the table and watched helplessly as one of them continued to the other side of the table, up & over the rail, and onto the floor. Dead hand.

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If both Aces were face-up and one flew off, would the hand still be dead? It's pretty hard to miss it being an A, and I imagine several players would confirm...

Re: Tough lesson learned re: mucking after showdown in a B&M game
 

My first day at $6-12 and I pick up KK. I of course raise. Flop comes QT7, rainbow. I bet, get raised, 3-bet, then call a cap. Turn is a 2. I bet, then call a raise. River comes 7, no flushes out there. I check/call.

Villian announces two pair and flips over QT. I muck Kings up made on the river, and realize it shortly thereafter. I asked the dealer to flip up my hand and she refuses. Probably a $120 mistake, I had a hard time finishing the session. I think everyone has a story similar to ours.

Re: Tough lesson learned re: mucking after showdown in a B&M game
 

I witnessed this twice in one day:

-Player A: I have the flush.
-Player B: (board shows a J and IS PAIRED) Goddamn pocket Jacks. (folds without showing)

Re: Tough lesson learned re: mucking after showdown in a B&M game
 

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I muck Kings up made on the river, and realize it shortly thereafter.

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Time to go back to SSHE and reread the chapter on hidden outs. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Tough lesson learned re: mucking after showdown in a B&M game
 

A week ago, my last night in Vegas, I was playing the $2/$4 game at the Golden Nugget. By the river I was heads up with a lady in seat 4 (I was in seat 7 and not in her direct line of sight). On the river, she bet out and I called with a hand I was pretty sure was beaten (busted draw or something like that). Seat 4 mucked her hand face down!! My eyes bug wide open as the dealer pushes the pot to me and I slide my cards to him face down. The lady in seat 4 leans forward to look at me and says, "I thought everyone folded." I had been playing pretty tight all night, but was doing absolutely nothing to attempt to hide the fact that I was still in the hand. Sometimes, inattention works in your favor.

Re: Tough lesson learned re: mucking after showdown in a B&M game
 

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He stood up, yelled "SHIP IT", tossed his aces on the table and watched helplessly as one of them continued to the other side of the table, up & over the rail, and onto the floor. Dead hand.

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If both Aces were face-up and one flew off, would the hand still be dead? It's pretty hard to miss it being an A, and I imagine several players would confirm...

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No, still dead. The whole table saw it. There was no mistaking what the hand was. A rule is a rule.

Onaflag...........