$109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

Party $109

The villain had been pretty aggressive. He hadn't shown down anything horrible but was definitely playing the big stack. I had just trippled up when my KK beat his QQ and another's AK.

Blinds 75/150

Villain: t9295
Hero: t6000

All fold to villain in CO-1 who limps for t150. Folded to me in SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I complete and BB checks.

Pot: t450
Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I bet t300. BB folds. Villain calls t300.

Pot: t1050
Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I bet t600. Villain calls t600.

Pot: t2250
River: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Range of hands for villain and what's your plan?

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

If he's a decent player. The only dangerous hand I could put him on would be slow-played trips. My reasoning is as follows:
1. The low str8: surely he wouldn't have called it down?
2. The flush: you've got the Ace, so I would expect him to at least re-raise the turn to find out where he stands.

The problem is that it's going to be hard for him to out you on a hand because there is no pre-flop raise so he might be nervous of his low flush, nervous of his J10 nervous of his poket sixes and is calling you down with marginal hand. The nightmare is trips though, especially if he's put you on the flush. No, in fact, the nightmare is J9 where he's put you on the flush and is coming stright OTT on the river.

You have a tricky decision. I can't see him calling a large bet unless he has you beat with the full house or flush. I would either check or make a small bet that you can afford to have re-raised and try to see what further information you can get. There doesn't seem too much value to raising unless you're sure he's got KJ, QJ etc. Checking may induce a bluff that you can't call but he can't be finding it easy to put you on a hand either and with a pair on the board and three to a flush (and no ace), I would be wary of making a bluff in his position.

What happened? It's a trouble hand - did you escape?

I, possibly wrongly, would have pushed out a larger bet on the turn with tptk and the nut flush draw.

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

i dont get his limp if he'd been pretty aggresive. maybe he has 45? i can't imagine any J that he'd limp w/, maybe he has an overpair he was trrying to trap w/ but the clubs froze him.

i dunno. i guess just lead for 1000 and call a push.

i see some benifites of check-calling too, but you gotta be losing lots of value doing that.

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

I can't put villain on a range here. His turn call looks a ton like a draw though, but then his flop call makes no sense unless he's decided to stick around with 45. I guess KcJ or QcJ is possible or some PP with a club. He could have a made flush here (or a poorly played set), but I think it's too likely that we're ahead to worry about being kind.

Anyway, our hand's really good and villain's range is unclear (at least to me), so I bet 3/4 pot and don't fold.

Note: The more I think about it, the more I think this line looks like a badly played flopped set. I really don't like this spot much. Maybe check/call is best?

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

When someone deviates this much from my established impression I thread carefully.
I dont fancy raising it PF to much as the hand is speculative, maybe best- but difficult to play out of position and I dont like investing to much in it. Sometimes however I try to imagine what an interesting flopp would make me do and how much I would invest in it and pop it up abit, if called then I either need to flopp a monster or I`ll go for the cheap route and fold a significant amount of time to resistance-abit weak thight from the blinds perhaps, but has been my nr.1 spot to bust from lately.

On flopp I see my self check raising more often then not. Your bet can be seen in a number of ways-most often I put you on a draw when you bet like this. As villains behaviour is unusual to his true self I want to know how interested he is in this flopp. The check raise leaves us with some more information? If one plans to bet 2/3 of pot now and fire again on turn-one can achieve more with somewhat less invested by c/r. I can see someone playing AA-KK like this. And small pp`s. Suited connectors to maybe, KJ QJ TJ . But I wouldnt trust myself to much with that, him being agressive. I think he would bring it in for a raise if 99-55? Then maybe he is afraid to get reraised to a bid he cant call? As it looks like stealing and his image may well encourage someone to test him, resent beat in mind not to tempting?

The more I look at the hand the more I feel he has ducks and his continuous calling on a scary board is enough to have me slowdown when thinking.If he put me on a draw and called what seems to be my made hand, he must have redraw with potential or made hand, unless retarded. Only contradiction is him not raising the flopp when two suited, but it is no guarantee apart from him playing this set poorly.Or he fears you will push what he believes is your draw? How does he percieve you?

I dont know on this river I hate it when I`m right, but call just to get it in my face. Sometimes you just lay down a winner. There is interest in the pot, but plenty chips to work with. Many times I would go " Hey! I got tripps and shortly after go, Hey I am out! But on a good day I c/f any bet above 1/2 pot. I believe AA KK takes the free showdown? But I would c/r flopp

For what it is worth Stokken

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

sometimes when i have a good stack and i have been playing rather aggressively, and i pick up a playable but not great hand in mp/late mp, i will limp to mix it up and possibly throw opponents off. this is what villain could be doing here.

so i think his range his pretty wide. something like 55 or 66 is likely. a flush is possible. i think we would have heard from a big J or a set earlier.

a overly-slowplayed KK or AA that froze up once the turn flush came is also a distinct possibility.

given these, i would value bet the river for t1200, and if he raises...well, i would vomit all over the computer and, assuming it still functioned, probably call.

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

I have to lead the river, and I'm calling a push.

We are behind 22/33/99 and flushes.

We are ahead of AA/KK/QQ/TT/88/77 KJ/QJ/JT.

Its disconcenrting that he called the turn instead of raising it, but if he doesn't put you on a flush draw, he may think his overpair/midpair is good.

Given that an aggro player limped PF, I lean towards on overpair to the flop, but don't understand why he didn't raise the turn, unless he has a big [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

If he hit his set good for him, pay him off, you are too far ahead of too many hands.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

bet and call a raise.

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

[ QUOTE ]

I dont know on this river I hate it when I`m right, but call just to get it in my face. Sometimes you just lay down a winner. There is interest in the pot, but plenty chips to work with. Many times I would go " Hey! I got tripps and shortly after go, Hey I am out! But on a good day I c/f any bet above 1/2 pot. I believe AA KK takes the free showdown? But I would c/r flopp

[/ QUOTE ]

It's important to realize that, no matter how good at poker you are, your first thought when considering whether or not to go to showdown should be the strength of your hand. The logic of "hey, I've got trips!" is pretty solid.

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

absolutely do not check this hand on the river, you are only asking villain to push, then you have no clue if he has the goods or not. I put in a bet of say 900 on the river. Villain with lesser hand may pay this off and a better hand may be worried about this being a value bet for a decent full house or nut flush (especially since he can't have the A of clubs).

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

For starters, here's what he probably doesn't have: a jack. If he called both the flop and the turn with it and managed not to raise on a three flush board, he's...not good. (It's possible he's got something like K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J, but unlikely.)

He might have a set or a flush. He might also have total trash (medium pair, two cards that he is planning to bluff with). Don't even think about a blocking bet; bet/raise/call is a good way to lose your stack - all of the bluffs are going to abandon ship on this card because you're not folding, and all of the big hands will raise big because you're not folding.

It's a lose/lose situation...unless you check. Which I do 100% of the time on this board, and then I call a big bet and beat his 75 offsuit that he would never have bluff raised with now.

PS: If he has a midpair, checking is also faaaar better. Do you see why?

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

[ QUOTE ]
PS: If he has a midpair, checking is also faaaar better. Do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]
no, i dont. how about you help me out and explain.

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

i'm almost always bet/calling here, and getting pissed off that i don't have position.

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

[ QUOTE ]
PS: If he has a midpair, checking is also faaaar better. Do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]

this makes no sense.

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's a lose/lose situation...unless you check. Which I do 100% of the time on this board, and then I call a big bet and beat his 75 offsuit that he would never have bluff raised with now.

PS: If he has a midpair, checking is also faaaar better. Do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]

So you are totally discounting the number of times a mid pair or badly played overpair calls?

I like your line in that you don't go broke to a bigger hand, and get value from bluffs, but he can hold some hands that call the river.

Another J is unlikely, but also cannot be discounted completely.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

[ QUOTE ]


It's a lose/lose situation...unless you check. Which I do 100% of the time on this board, and then I call a big bet and beat his 75 offsuit that he would never have bluff raised with now.



[/ QUOTE ]

you say you call a big bet. it's river time, he has position, he has the nuts or near nuts, isn't he going to bet big? so you go broke calling him. What's wrong with a value bet? Villain can have near nuts and respect the fact that you may actually have the nuts and you get through rather cheaply. In addition, it is a value bet because if villain has a pocket pair, you are getting villain to put more chips into a pot with a losing hand.

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

Bet, call any raise or push any raise. You are getting all of your chips in here and be glad.

Now, you may be up against the flush, but based on what you said about the villian, he would most likely have raised the turn, since he does not have the nut flush.

He could have slow played a set, but I doubt it. I would put him on KJ or QJ with the K or Q of clubs. What do I win?

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

You have, say, 77. 'Villain' bets into you on a J329 board with 2/3 clubs, then checks a second jack. The best play with 77 is probably to check behind; what people *actually* do is to bet it looking to get a better hand to fold or A3 to call.

Conversely, when villain bets the jack, 77 isn't calling a large bet and might not call a small one. But he might very well bet the pot if checked to.

When you check, you lose some value vs. normal jacks (but not a lot - they will value bet themselves most of the time, so you average a few hundred chips), 'win' lots vs. flushes/boats and make a killing off the Harrington 10% (which is a bigger factor here than you would think). You lose a bunch off AA-QQ and exactly K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J. I make this tradeoff all the time and will post a few hands when I get home tomorrow if this thread is still around.

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

[ QUOTE ]
The best play with 77 is probably to check behind; what people *actually* do is to bet it looking to get a better hand to fold or A3 to call.


[/ QUOTE ]

what better hand is villain folding out? exactly 88? i recognize you're not saying that it's a smart play - it's what bad villains do - but i think a bet here from 77 is too stupid for us to think that villain does it. it's much less stupid for a villain to call a 1/2 pot river bet with 77, and i think it happens more.

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

Villain has to bet the pot with 77 half as much as he calls half the pot with it, and I assure you, from my results they not only bet big with 77 but almost anything that got to the river in the first place.

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

wow the advice in this thread is really bad.

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

[ QUOTE ]
wow the advice in this thread is really bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

luckily youve came and set us all straight

oh wait, no, you didnt offer anything constructive at all [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

basically you have two options IMO, one is to bet and the other is to checkraise all in. You are pretty certain to have the best hand, and it just depends if a worse J will call the c/r, and how often he will bluff with something like QcTx.

The more OP thinks he'll call a c/r with KJ-JT and then more he will bluff with Tc8o or QcTo or some other garbage the more I like a checkraise. I would probably bet about 2k and expect to get called by all J's and some other hands too.

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

I wanna bump this because we came to no consensus.

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

At the very least I'm glad this wasn't an absolutely straight forward hand.

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

[ QUOTE ]
At the very least I'm glad this wasn't an absolutely straight forward hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think what sucks so much about this hand is that it's pretty easy to play against a villain that you've played a lot with, but it's very hard to play against a semi-unknown.

Did you consider checking the turn?

Lloyd anything happen on river? Adanthar:some hand samples please
 

C'mon people I gots me some lernin to do.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

Villain's call on the turn is somewhat peculiar, given the club draw and outside straight draw on the board. I think you can rule out a set, as it is perfectly reasonable to think you have have "Ac" and he would probably raise here. Did he make his flush? Probably not, as he would have to worry about "A - Qc" at this point, and would probably raise again to protect his hand on the turn. It's possible that given his reputation as an aggro player and a read that you have top pair, he's counting on you to bet on the river and then go over the top, pretending to have air.
Not entirely unreasonable, especially from someone with a "devil may care" attitude who is not willing to sacrifice value in light of the possibility of another club.

All things considered, I like checking with a reasonable expectation of a bet by Villain, followed by a call. The "J" on the river is significant because it may put into villain's mind that you don't have another Jack, as there are already two on the board. Given the play of this hand, Villain will probably bet the pot, giving you a reasonable call with enough chips left if he was trapping. ON THE OTHER HAND, at this point, any bet that you make will seem suspicious, even a 1,000 bet, and may get him to fold on this board. Let the aggro player do the betting for you here; you'll get value if you win and won't lose a lot if he has you beat.

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villain has to bet the pot with 77 half as much as he calls half the pot with it, and I assure you, from my results they not only bet big with 77 but almost anything that got to the river in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

do we agree that no good player is betting 77 there? that's a group that we'd like to value bet, for starters.

i'm skeptical about this claim that you're going to see a bet at all from most players there with 77. i think they usually check (but i'm willing to be convinced). unfortunately there's not a real way to logic through that, so hopefully others will post their impressions.

i think it's pretty unlikely that you see a full pot bet. i'd expect a 1/3-2/3 pot a lot more often.

is there something about this board/betting line that makes you think villains are going to be jumping to fire big river bets with air or with mediocre made hands they should be showing down?

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

I don't know about that. I've often found this to be a leak in my online game but in situations like this I often hear my imaginary commentator saying "the only way he can win this pot is if he bets at it." It's very possible that a big bet by the villain would get even top pair to fold with the Jacks pairing and a possible flush. So yeah, I think a good player may bet 77 here.

Now, I say it's often a leak because it seems like everytime I make such a bet I get called by a hand that *should* have folded. But I think that has a bit to do with the fact that I'm not making a huge bet - just enough to make him think I want to call - figuring that's a stronger play. Again, I might think it's a stronger play but my opponents often don't.

So I think a good player could bet 77 here if he thought his opponent was also a good player.

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

[ QUOTE ]
basically you have two options IMO, one is to bet and the other is to checkraise all in. You are pretty certain to have the best hand, and it just depends if a worse J will call the c/r, and how often he will bluff with something like QcTx.

The more OP thinks he'll call a c/r with KJ-JT and then more he will bluff with Tc8o or QcTo or some other garbage the more I like a checkraise. I would probably bet about 2k and expect to get called by all J's and some other hands too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't see either JT, or T8, even with a single club, calling the flop bet.

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

I can't see any J playing the hand this way. Based on the pre-flop limp I pretty much only see him having a pair here - AA on down. Any of those could be limped pre-flop and just call a flop bet (some pairs more likely than others but all possible). Maybe some type of suited connectors with clubs.

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can't see any J playing the hand this way. Based on the pre-flop limp I pretty much only see him having a pair here - AA on down. Any of those could be limped pre-flop and just call a flop bet (some pairs more likely than others but all possible). Maybe some type of suited connectors with clubs.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think he doesn't raise 22,33,99?

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

I think he could raise or limp with any pair. Like I said, some more likely than others. But in addition to some kind of suited club connectors what else could he hold that limps pre-flop AND just calls the flop and turn. And it's certainly possible that he doesn't protect a hand he thinks is good versus the flush draw. Heads up I'll often take the chance when I think I'm possibly way ahead/way behind with the idea of trying to control the pot size.

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

Is there anything here that leads you to believe he will call bets on the flop/turn and river with something that you are ahead of without a J? It seems unlikely to me. It also seems unlikely that he will bet anything you are ahead of that isnt a J. So either way I see no value from those hands. Your opponent will always call with a J on the river, but if you check he will pretty much always bet it also, so again I would be pretty much indifferent to betting v. checking. However, check calling on the river saves you money against sets/flushes 100% of the time (since i think if you bet and he pushes you have to call). So by checking, we lose value the times he has a worse J and pushes the river, but we gain value the times he has a set/flush. I think check calling is the better play.

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is there anything here that leads you to believe he will call bets on the flop/turn and river with something that you are ahead of without a J? It seems unlikely to me. It also seems unlikely that he will bet anything you are ahead of that isnt a J. So either way I see no value from those hands. Your opponent will always call with a J on the river, but if you check he will pretty much always bet it also, so again I would be pretty much indifferent to betting v. checking. However, check calling on the river saves you money against sets/flushes 100% of the time (since i think if you bet and he pushes you have to call). So by checking, we lose value the times he has a worse J and pushes the river, but we gain value the times he has a set/flush. I think check calling is the better play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah.. MLG's right.. I think this is an obvious check, and a slightly less obvious check/call.

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

This is an interesting hand; so Lloyd are you going to tell us how much you decided to bet out and your opponent's reaction.

Personally, I can't understand all the talk about mid pairs - aggressive big stack in CO-1 and he doesn't raise just doesn't sit well with me. I put him on a drawing hand that's missed or something nutty, so a check seems to be the only thing that makes any sense; then making a decision on the basis of his bet size.

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

It's a weird hand and I too would like to know the result. As I said before, I would have probably raised the turn more but my main concern in terms of reading him is that he would have no read on me, having not raised AJ pre-flop so I can't imagine what he can be calling with apart from trips.

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

nice post.

Re: $109 Party Hand - Trip Jacks vs. another big stack on river
 

I bet 1k. He pushed.

What's he have? Should I call?

Results in white below:

<font color="white">I called. Villain has 33 for full house. </font>