Preflop 66
 

I'm just learning, but I'm really enjoying the process. This hand confused me, but I suspect that it's probably not that hard.

--------------
Ultimate Bet 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG caps</font>, Hero ???

Re: Preflop 66
 

you should think more about this.

compare your first call of 2 bets to your second call of 2 bets. the first call could get you to the flop three handed to the flop, and you would have gotten about 2:1 on your call. the second call you are now closing the action getting 6:1.

which one should you concern yourself with? the first one. so fold the first time. the second call is necessary.

edit: there are times where the first coldcall is okay, as in you know there are 2-3 looooose players behind you who you fully expect to come along with you. most often you should fold.

Re: Preflop 66
 

Thanks for the reply. My thought process (or lack thereof) was like this.

Lee Jones says to fold the first one. SSH says to call it, if the table is loose. The table was pretty loose (preflop anyway). Lots of players would see most flops, and then they seemed to fold easily. So, I made that cold call.

I've been following the advice in SSH that says I should focus more of my study as a newbie on post-flop play. So I just memorized their starting charts and read the text a few times, but haven't really studied the math behind it yet.

The second time, I was thinking that it wouldn't have been raised twice again unless I was up against some really good hands. As you point out, I completely ignored the size of the pot and focused on the fact that my 66 was starting to look pretty weak and that pairs don't like lots of opponents.*

When you say that it's 6-1 and I'm closing action, which is better than 2-1 when it's uncertain, I understand what you mean. I clearly didn't see that at the time, but it makes sense now. However, I don't understand how to calculate that 6-1 is high enough odds with a 66. Am I focusing on the 12% chance that I'll flop another 6? This is 7-1 I think. ( (100-12)/12 : 1) If that's correct, then is it the implied odds plus other long-shot outs that make my 6-1 pot odds worth calling?


(* This is what was going through my head at the time. I'm not saying that it's correct.)

Re: Preflop 66
 

[ QUOTE ]

If that's correct, then is it the implied odds plus other long-shot outs that make my 6-1 pot odds worth calling?


[/ QUOTE ]

Correct.

Re: Preflop 66
 

Hero calls.

Re: Preflop 66
 

I'd fold the first cold-call and call the second.

Re: Preflop 66
 

You should probably think about folding this in EP against an early raiser, as if no one calls you won't get good odds to play for set value. Once you have called the first bet I think you really need to call the cap, and at that point are probably getting good odds on your hand. Be prepared to release on the flop if you don't hit, unless the board is ragged.

Re: Preflop 66
 

[ QUOTE ]

Lee Jones says to fold the first one. SSH says to call it, if the table is loose.

[/ QUOTE ] What? Where does SSH say to cold call a UTG raise with 66? Fold this like 95% of the time unless you KNOW you will have a 5 way pot or more.

*I see it's on the loose chart. Use the tight one instead.

Re: Preflop 66
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Lee Jones says to fold the first one. SSH says to call it, if the table is loose.

[/ QUOTE ] What? Where does SSH say to cold call a UTG raise with 66? Fold this like 95% of the time unless you KNOW you will have a 5 way pot or more.

*I see it's on the loose chart. Use the tight one instead.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're correct. The table was loose though, so that's why I was using that chart. They do mention in the section on small pairs that you should only cold call these when you're almost certain that it will be a 5-handed pot. At the time, I had completely forgotten about that.

Re: Preflop 66
 

IMO, this is only a limp in hand in EP, if and only if, the table is loose and passive. You want to see the flop cheaply with a lot of callers.

I wouldn't cold call two bets here unless the table was very loose.

Re: Preflop 66
 

To make a coldcall like this (the first one), you need the table to be loose *and* passive. If youre going to get stuck for a lot of bets to see the flop, you should be folding in the first place.

Notice that the second coldcall is automatic, getting 6:1. However, you got a very bad deal overall. I think you ended up getting 3:1 on your decision to play this hand, which is very poor considering how rarely you'll win. (I may have missed a bet someplace, but it looks like you're putting 4 bets into a 12 bet pot).

Fold this next time.

Re: Preflop 66
 

I would probably let it go to UTG raise (but I'm a stone in EP) there's still many to act behind you. Once you've made the call though, calling the cap isn't terible, you'll get loads of action if you hit your set. If you don't hit your set run like a bear is chasing you. Even if you do hit your set you gotta worry about other sets with bigger PP's thus why I drop 66 in that kind of position to UTG raise.

Re: Preflop 66
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're correct. The table was loose though, so that's why I was using that chart.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would advise you to start using the tight chart instead. I've never seen a table having 6-8 callers PF on average.

Guess it might happen live and maybe on-line too, but thats a rare occasion.

-aron

Re: Preflop 66
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Lee Jones says to fold the first one. SSH says to call it, if the table is loose.

[/ QUOTE ] What? Where does SSH say to cold call a UTG raise with 66? Fold this like 95% of the time unless you KNOW you will have a 5 way pot or more.

*I see it's on the loose chart. Use the tight one instead.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're correct. The table was loose though, so that's why I was using that chart. They do mention in the section on small pairs that you should only cold call these when you're almost certain that it will be a 5-handed pot. At the time, I had completely forgotten about that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play UB .25/.50 as well, and I've rarely seen a table that's loose enough to really make SSH's loose chart profitable. Now from what I've seen in hand post, party has some of those tables. I don't know if UB is better play or just filled with people who have read Phil Helmouths "supertight is right" begining and intermediate chapters on limit hold-em (can mock them since I'm a recovering PH junkie myself). Still on most UB tables I use tight chart. Either way I think a UTG raise deserves respect, esspescially with no reads, even with loose reads I let them have their fun 66 is a much more a limper from here, and sometimes I wouldn't even do that.

Re: Preflop 66
 

The preflop charts define YOUR playing style, not the tables. I'm a beginner myself, and during the learning process I've decided to stick with the Tight chart, as it keeps you clear of those harder post-flop decisions.

JunkHead

Re: Preflop 66
 

[ QUOTE ]
The preflop charts define YOUR playing style, not the tables. I'm a beginner myself, and during the learning process I've decided to stick with the Tight chart, as it keeps you clear of those harder post-flop decisions.

JunkHead

[/ QUOTE ]

very good point!

Re: Preflop 66
 

Yeah, I was an idiot. I memorized the loose charts from both books, but somehow managed to miss the 40-point bold font "6-8 on average to flop" definition for a loose game.

I'll try the tight chart now and see how that goes.

Thank you to everyone for the advice.