What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

Hi all,

[Note: The first paragraph is just some personal background info so you can skip it if you are not interested:
I am currently at a crossroad in my life when I am going back to the third world country where I was born and starting to orginize my life there. As I am also finishing up my first year of playing poker for recreatinal pursposes, I have been thinking whether from a personal point of view it is worth it and whether it is socially responsible to invest any more of my time and effort into poker. (Don't get me wrong: I have profitted from the game and if I manage to repeat my achievements from this first year, I will be able to make a decent living at home...) Here are the thoughts that have been going through my head:]

What good is poker? Socially and in general, what purpose do we serve as poker players? We expend a lot of time, money, physical and emotional energy playing a negative sum game. Nothing of any value is created in the process. Would the world benefit if more resources (man-hours and so on...) are devoted to poker instead of something else? I would say no. In fact, it would be worse off...

The more I think about it, the more I get convinced that playing poker is a totally unproductive activity (this is from a general and not personal point of view). The game rewards a few players financially and leaves the majority worse off (that is a statistical fact). In the meantime it takes its emotional and health toll on almost everybody. Yeah, there might be recreational value to playing but if recreation would be my primary motivation, there are many other hobbies out there that do not threaten with high probability to hurt my bank account and my health. And even if I turn out to be ones of the very few "lucky"/"able" ones who actually profit from the game, that would also automatically make me one of those same few "lucky"/"able" ones who either directly or indirectly are the reason for the financial, emotional troubles of the rest "unlucky"/"unable" ones.

I mean, what exactly is poker? It is money exchanging hands. The websites, casinos, the rules of the game and so on are just vehicles that facilitate the exchange. A few people win from the exchange and their wins are less than what the majority loses. The difference is taken by the facilitating casino/website as a fee. Part of that fee is reinvested in the "infrastructure" of the poker world to provide better service, employ more people and so on... Is that the most efficient allocaton of that money? Probably not. I think it would be more beneficial if that low-skilled laborer in India or Aruba or wherever providing support for my exchange of money called poker was instead employed to produce something of value (a computer part or even some cheap item sold at Wal-Mart) . I don't think it would make much of a difference to the laborer and something productive/useful would come out of the whole process.

Anyway, just wanted to share the thoughts that have been going through my head lately. Those thoughts were a spontaneous attempt to look from a more general and unbiased perspective at the activity that I have been involved in for almost a year now.

I think a natural answer to some of the questions that I aksed in this post would be that poker is a voluntary activity and it is primarily intended to provide recreation and entertainment to people. The fact that it is voluntary, though, doesn't make poker socially beneficial. Which leads to my other question, individually each player and together as a poker commmunity are we socially responsible?

Don't get me wrong. I am not preaching against playing poker or gambling in general. I will probably continue to play regularly but I just want to see things the way they are. If I am involved in an unporoductive activity that is borderline socially irresponsible, I would like to at least know it.

Just trying to start a discussion that would hopefully make me feel a little better about playing and taking other people's money
Bate

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

winning poker players are like the hairy women in the circus. We entertain.. and do it in a pretty damn sexy way

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

As someone who is currently making a decent living laboring to make a lot more money for a company who makes all of their income off online ads, I have this to say: PPPPPPPPPPPPPPTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

If you are a fireman, teacher or social worker, GOD BLESS YOU. Otherwise 97.5% of the jobs we do are just laboring to make some insanely rich people a little more rich. My goal is to be "off the grid" in a few months. I guarantee I won't be any less useful to society than I am now. If I make the money I want and am able to travel to all the places I want with all the free time I hope to have, then at least it'll benefit some third-world economies.

That's my philosophy anyway.

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

We are productive members of society. We take money out of idiots hands before they can go see movies like Armageddon, or buy the latest 50 Cent CD and instead we can funnel the money into various anti government militias to expose the truth.

That the United States is just a front for the vast Illuminatic/Beta Reticuli conspiracy that threatens to envelop the entire world.

But seriously, poker provides entertainment for people, we provide them a diversion and make sure they are especially productive at their place of business so they don't get fired and lose their source of money that allows them to play poker.

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

I live in a Northern Ontario steel town, a town who's primary employer for most of it's existance was the steel mill. For years it was the status quo that people had basically 2 choices, go to college and move away, or go work in the mill. If choosing the latter one could almost be assured a decent living en route to the white picket fenced house and 2.2 children etc etc.

As economic conditions changed in the market place, the layoffs began. Not only were there no longer jobs for the recently graduated high school kids, but those who were already foot-holed in the mill soon found themselves on the unemployment line, in a city with now one of the highest unemployment rates in Canada, facing the loss of their house, tensions in their familes, and many of them turning to the bottle for comfort, thus leading to the breakdown of family. I am sure this is a similar scenario with many industries, and in many locations. Chit happens, eh.

Some years back after some deregulation of gaming laws, a casino opened up in our community,. and now serves as one of our better employers. It has saved many ex-steel workers through available jobs, their homes, their familes etc etc. I believe for us, the social impact of gambling has largely been a positive.

As far as being a full time poker player/gambler and the social implication of this versus some other job, I feel I am doing my part in keeping my neighbor in a job every time I buy into a table there. As far as the health aspect is concerned, I won't deny that I might be about 20 lbs. lighter and in better shape if my daily work schedule didn't consist of 6-8 hrs of sitting my azz in front of a PC multi-tablin'. I also know though, that I could easily have been one of the ones who spent 30 years working in a mill to drop over dead with a heart attack due to the stress and worry the job carried, or the barrage of various lung diseases brought on by working in fairly toxic circumstances. I can live with the extra 20 lbs.

I don't have any shame in doing what I do, nor do I feel I am not doing my part for society, or our economy.

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

You have a fairly simplistic notion of what constitutes "value" to society. Tell me, should we herd off the musicians and force them work in a coal mine or do something else more "productive" with their time? How about the guys working the financial markets? Besides stocks, there are now all sorts of esoteric financial instruments, like options on options and so on. Should we ban those? Send the guys running the hedge funds into the coal mine too?

There's more to "value" than just producing things you can physically touch. There's value in entertainment, value in creating capital, and yes, value in playing poker. That is, unless you're a hermit who doesn't spend any of the money he earns (no house, no food, no clothing, no taxes, no investments, nothing).

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

Wow, I love this thread.

I totally agree with the original poster....

IMHO Poker has very little value to "society". Not "none", but very little. It is all about the individual. It is among the most unsocial activities out there. Of course you can get entertained, have a bit of a laugh while playing, etc. But YOU play to WIN. You play to gain from the loss of others. Where is the by-product??? What is produced???

It takes man back to his natural instinct- in its rawest form- survival of the fittest- this isn't "social" behaviour.

Society has taught us through conditioning to play nicely and be sociable. Deep down, most people want as much as they can get- and in the easiest way possible.

It's what you do with that gain that's important. How "sociable" are you going to be with it? Help charitys. travel the world, etc, etc.

As for me, I am just setting out on my poker "career". I can;t even beat the micro's yet. But I have a vision of beating the small stakes in a year or so from now. This would add extra money to my income to do more "sociable" things with my family.

It seems to me that Poker is (potentially) a very "dangerous" activity. To beat the game you have adopt the most selfish behavioural patterns. If you do this and you are winning- a vortex starts spinning- you want more. Your values may change. You may be consumed. Achieving a healthy balance must be (I imagine) the hardest lesson of all.

Just my thoughts.

Ian

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You have a fairly simplistic notion of what constitutes "value" to society. Tell me, should we herd off the musicians and force them work in a coal mine or do something else more "productive" with their time? How about the guys working the financial markets? Besides stocks, there are now all sorts of esoteric financial instruments, like options on options and so on. Should we ban those? Send the guys running the hedge funds into the coal mine too?

There's more to "value" than just producing things you can physically touch. There's value in entertainment, value in creating capital, and yes, value in playing poker. That is, unless you're a hermit who doesn't spend any of the money he earns (no house, no food, no clothing, no taxes, no investments, nothing).

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this, but have a couple of further points to add. The OP mentions that he is going back to live in a third world country. I've lived in a third world country. I understand what goes on in that environment. By playing poker online you are going to be bringing hard cash directly into a place that needs it the most. You can't tell me that this isn't a benefit. Figure out what you want to do with it but I'm sure you can put a small percentage of it to good use.

Another thing. Everyone needs to have a vice. No matter how straight they seemingly are. Some people admit they have vices, other people lie to themselves. But we all have at least one. Being a model train collector for example is a vice. How much money do these guys spend? What use is it to the social good? What about people who play golf for chrissake? The list is endless.
My vice makes me money. And even if it didn't, compared to what a lot of other people spend on vices, it wouldn't be much.

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

Some of you are just plain wrong.

We provide no entertainment to others. It is usually more fun for losing players to play with other losing players.

The money we pay in rake is a business expense. We are talking about the money we take home. The amount we pay in rake is not significantly helpfull to society relative to what would have happened to the money had we not been involved.

Our jobs themselves (as online or cash game casino pro poker players) are of nearly no utility to society. This is an inescapable and undisputable fact.

If you are an extremely moral person you can compensate for this by being involved in a lot of charities.

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

If the majority of players are gaining nothing from playing poker, why do they keep coming back? Poker provides the same thing any form of entertainment does. The same could be said about movies/music/television. These mediums take lots of money from the consumer for what? A couple of hours of escapism.

The money aspect of poker is not just a degenerate game of gambling. People want to test their skills for financial reward. There are many examples of this, Magic the gatrhering, backgammon, Pool, etc. The bigger the stakes the better the players.

Outside of people with gambling problems, I would have no problems taking peoples money. With todays online micro stakes, there should be no one spending more than they can afford to lose. So I really dont see what the problem is.

It would be better for society for you to play poker part time and do some volunteer work with all the free time you have, than spend 40-50 hours a week working for some greedy corporation.

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

Hi and thank you for the replies. Let me start off by saying that the last thing that my original post was intended to do was attack somebody or argue against playing, so there is no need for anybody's defense mechanisms to kick in and to get personal. I also play and I was just trying to hopefully spark a discussion...

Here is my reply to adsman and the poster before him. I don't think my definition of what is of "value" to society is simplistic. I personally understand something that is of value to society as something that adds more to the well being (spelling???) of society than it takes away. You mention a musician: a musician creates music that might be of value to somebody else who might pay money to hear it. In any case, by creating some music, the musician doesn't hurt another in any way (creating music is certainly not a zero sum or a negative sum game as poker). Or you mention guys who work in finance: They provide a service (be it financial advice or whatever) that is of value of others. By providing their financial services they facilitate many benifitial activities (be it to manage risk or to create a market for a certain transaction; I mean you wouldn't be a able to lease a car if there wasn't a bank to approve your lease or an insurace company to insure your car and so on....) Again, whatever the case is, people in finance (in general) do not hurt anybody by providing their services [Of course there are exceptions like George Soros supposedly profiting from the Asian financial crisis, but in general the benefits that financial markets provide outweigh the harm they cause by a large margin]... These are just specific cases.

This is how understand simple economics: people/agents, whatever you want to call them, have different preferences and therefore place different value on goods and services. That is why usually when a voluntary transaction takes place, both sides benefit or at least they are indifferent. An example with a person who works at a coal was given. You work at a coal mine and are a part of organization that produces a good/service that is of value to somebody else. Same with musicians, hedge managers, whatever....

Is it the same with poker? I wouldn't say so. I am not discovering hot water here by saying that in order for you to win money at poker, somebody else needs to lose. Do you provide any good or service for the money you have won? No, unless you count the "entertainment/recreation" you provide to the other guy by taking his money. During a play of a hand, is anything that is of any value created? In general, how would describe an activity (I would even call it just a transaction) during which 90+% of the people involved are left worse off so that the rest can profit benefitial to society? [The argument that there are many other situations in life that are not fair, doesn't make poker any more or less socially responsible. It sounds more like making an excuse or trying to avoid responsibility for doing something that you know is "wrong" by claiming that others are doing it too. Only people who don't have any alternatives have SOME right to make that argument]

Anyways, these are just thoughts that have been going through my head lately. As much as I like poker, I cannot deny the fact that I am doing it purely for my own entertainment and benefit with a certain disregards for other people's well being. Or am I wrong?

Bate

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the majority of players are gaining nothing from playing poker, why do they keep coming back?

[/ QUOTE ]

If they didn't gain ANYTHING, EVERY time they played- they WOULDN'T come back.

But they do gain and lose on a "random" basis. So the carrot is repeatedly dangled in front of their face.

That is why they come back: "Maybe this time I'll win".

Can you think of ANY other activity that has such high rewards for such a "simple" concept? No wonder it is so appealing.

I personally have no problem with poker. I am not a winning player yet. I have no problem with people winning money off me at the micros. I am studying hard to change that around.

My bottom line on the debate:
-Poker is about selfish gain from other people
But on the flip side....
-Everyone has their own free will and option to play or not.

I am fed up with the ever growing culture of "Diminishing Personal Responsibility".

If people didn't want to partake (in gambling), Vegas wouldn't exist as it does today.

People will ALWAYS look for "get rich quick" schemes in life.

Ian

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

bate nasko pederas. bulgaria is not a third world country.

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

What obligation do we have to be socially productive or to do things that are "socially beneficial"?

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What obligation do we have to be socially productive or to do things that are "socially beneficial"?

[/ QUOTE ]

None.

But then, who IS going to do it?

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

It's not simplistic, your rebuttal is simplistic.

In all your examples, those people are providing something of value to someone else.

Musicians provide entertainment.
Someone working the Stock Market obviously does something that people use (people use the Stock Market).

In any example you are likely going to try to come up with think about this? Is someone using or depending on that person for something? YES!!! That's the value.

Musicians are the best example because they wouldnt exist if nobody wanted them. When's the last time you saw people running around wanting to lose some money from a winning poker player? What's the value in that?

Im not saying poker is evil or anything either or there is anything wrong with doing it for a living. But if you try to make it out like it's a job or that you are providing some value to society, you're not. (whether that matters to you or not is up to you of course)

The only troubling aspect is we have tons of 18-20 somethings that are spending time in college and probally have zero job experience that try to switch to playing poker full time.

If they are successful at it, of course it's going to seem hard to bother finishing school and getting any other sort of job since they can make money (at least in the short term) so much easier and faster by playing poker.

That could be bad because when people are that age that's when you really start to figure out who you are and what you really are about. A lot of them probally never even had a job (because Mommy and Daddy pay for everything) so they dont even really know if they would like a real job or not (even though they will claim that they couldnt stand a regular job).

I think it has to do with why people work and what their ambitions are. If you are the sort of person who merely would of had a job just for the sake of making money, then probally playing poker is going to be a lot more acceptable than the guy who works not just for the money but because that's part of who he is.

You are right that spending money provides value to someone, but that's true with any job. But the work that you do (and it is work, just not a real job), provides nothing to anyone.

I could rob banks for a living and spend the money as well and I could use the same arguement about the spending part adding value to society. As well as producing work for security firms, law enforcement, etc...

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

Poker is just another gambling game that's mostly played for recreation. What's different from it is that it can be beaten and you can make alot of money doing it. So of course people are going to try to take advantage of that, myself included.

Asking this question can be applied to gambling in general... what good is gambling other than losing your money and having fun? It doesn't produce anything and it doesnt help anybody (except the casino and maybe the people that win)... But the same could be said for poker, too.

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

"There's more to "value" than just producing things you can physically touch"



Yup. In fact, all physical products of society are the things that are worthless to man. Will man take these things into the afterlife? It's better to assume there is one than to assume there isn't. If there isn't one then you lose nothing. But if there is one, and you haven't prepared for it during life than that is highly -EV.

Nothing teaches detachment and self control better than poker. Which would you have rather accumulated throughout your life when faced with the moment of your death? A big house, a Mercedes, providing society with televisons because you manufacture televisions? Or would you rather have accumulated a life time of detachment and ruthless self control?

I know that everyone that plays poker won't become detached and try to learn how to play in a +EV manner and it will destroy some lives. But that's just another victory for Darwinism. They simply failed to evolve. When faced with death they will simply resort to what they have their whole lives. They will indulge in self pity and ask "why me? why do I have to die?" Which is totally insane, because everyone has to die, just like everyone else has to take bad beats. There's no sense indulging in your self pity about it, because it is inevitable. A man that is totally removed of pity will be better prepared to die than one to whom self pity is a central focus.

My perspective is as follows. Anything that prepares one to face the unknown is "good" and anything that detracts or demphasizes the unknown in the place of immediate gratification of the here and now is "bad."





"The meaning of life is to prerpare for death." --Plato

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

A friend and I have discussed this matter on several occasions. The closest comparison to the poker-playing profession that he came up with is being a stock market daytrader. We decided that as a daytrader, your usefulness is basically limited to providing liquidity to the market. As a poker player, you provide entertainment.

I think the comparison is quite fair, as both games are negative sum games. Either way, whether it's liquidity to the market or entertainment value for others, we decided that they are both pretty poor ways to BS your usefulness to society.

No offense to daytraders and poker players, of course. My friend is currently trying to make it as a daytrader, and thanks to poker I can type this out on my 20" LCD.

Sometimes you need to find meaning in your full-time profession; that's why I manually masturbate caged animals for artificial insemination.

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

A winning poker player is like a casino. The owners of the casino are looking to make a profit, and the people playing at the casino are looking for entertainment. Nothing wrong with that, the casino is providing a service.

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

[ QUOTE ]
the people playing at the casino are looking for entertainment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the army of blue-rinse OAP's pumping coins into the slots from dusk 'til dawn look like they're having a ball! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Ian

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

People have to take personal responsibility like in anything else. You can drink alcohol for fun, but it can be abused. That doesn't make drinking alcohol wrong on the whole.

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

Many of us give money to charity occasionally. Plus it helps with the bills. I don't fool myself by telling myself that I'm somehow making the world a better place by playing poker though. I'm not that self delusional.

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

[ QUOTE ]
People have to take personal responsibility like in anything else. You can drink alcohol for fun, but it can be abused. That doesn't make drinking alcohol wrong on the whole.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry to say we have moved on from that into the era of the "Blame Culture".

I don't have to be responsible for anything- it is somebody's elses fault and I'm going to sue 'em!

I know.... it's really sad. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Ian

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

[ QUOTE ]
People have to take personal responsibility like in anything else. You can drink alcohol for fun, but it can be abused. That doesn't make drinking alcohol wrong on the whole.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tend to agree with this for the most part. Most people who have gambling addiction, it is not so much the casino's fault, as it is human nature's. Addiction is addiction, one that is often attributed to compulsive behavior. If these people weren't pumping the slots full from morning to night, the chances are high that the little old blue-haired lady with her hand on the lever would likely be sitting home with her credit card out buying meaningless item after item on the Home Shopping Network, or sitting at the Royal Legion on her 8th draft telling tales of yesteryear, or, or...Point is, if the compulsive nature is there, the vessel for it is soon to arrive.

Unfortunately gambling is a vessel. I don't like to see it, but if Ma Kettle isn't spending her pension cheque on a stool pulling a lever, it is almost a guarantee it will be happening elsewhere.

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Or am I wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, you are wrong. The problem is that you still don't understand "value," and the examples you cited only serve to underscore that fact. Let's zero in on the financial markets.

You talked about a bank providing car loans or a guy providing financial advice. It's easy to see "benefit" to society in those services. But the examples I wanted you to think about are fairly different. So, let's just talk about a sale of stock. One party is selling the stock, the other party is buying it. However, over some fixed time span, the stock is going to either rise or fall. So either the buyer or the seller is going to end up worse off if we just look at the price of the stock. So is stock trading an example of taking advantage of people? (It's not, but I want you to think about a more complicated example and come up with reasons why it's not evil.) More generally, hedge funds and many financial institutions make their money off arbitrage. That is, they make money -- and lots of it! -- by exploiting inefficiencies in the financial system. Are they evil? Are they taking advantage of people?

These examples in many ways are fairly close to poker. Once you realize how and why these are not "zero value" or "negative value" activities with respect to society, you should also be able to extrapolate the same for poker.

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

suntsu69 is right. Bulgaria is not a third world country. I guess it is more correct to label it as a developing one (which is a more broad category that includes some of the third world countries but excludes the ones with most underdeveloped economies). As much I hate to admit it, that is the truth. How else would you classify en economy in which the average monthly salary is about $200-250 (that is including the rural and not just the urban areas) and prices are converging to the EU averages? I won't go into GDP figures and other economic indicators, cause I don't know the latest numbers...

For those of you that do not know, which is understandable, Bulgaria is a small and beautiful Eastern European country with rich history and traditions. It has a booming tourist industry and its economy is definitely on the rise. The country is scheduled to join the EU in 2007... Take my word for it, I am voluntarily going back to live there after spending a few years in the States [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

PS suntsu69, pm me if you want to get in touch. By the way, did you call yourself after the author of The Art of War? Isn't his name spelled Sun Tzu with a z? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [haha, dai da ne se obijdame i narichame pederasi; prati mi chastno suobshtenie ako iskash. upseh s pokera]

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

You aren't the first person to arrive at this idea, and you won't be the last. Poker players don't contribute a lot to society while they are performing their job, but neither do most people. Most people do the job that they can make the most money that requires them to do the least amount of work while still doing something they can basically tolerate. A very small percentage of people do something that is greatly fulfilling to them - some of these people make good money but most make almost nothing(relatively speaking). To me, I am less impressed by someone who has led their life as a veritable cog in the machine but who does something seemingly worthwhile than by someone who is doing what they want and enjoying life. For example, people who fail or give up along some career path and "settle" for becoming a teacher are contributing less to the general good than someone who passionately pursues poker and succeeds. The person who passionately pursues teaching trumps both of these people as far as contribution based solely on his profession, but the poker player has a chance to contribute more greatly than the teacher outside of his job because of the things he can effect with his capital if he chooses to do so. The bottom line is, a poker player has just as much chance to "contribute to society" as anybody - if only because their is so much time left in the day once work is over.
-James

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

i donate a small relative portion of my take from poker to charities. while the relative portion is small to me it makes a big difference to the charities.

latest is $500 to charity on behalf of a friend whose mother recently passed away. i also did it anonymously so as to make it a true mitzvah.

i feel these donations, which i make anywhere from 2-5 times a year are enough to cover my degenerate a.ss

seriously though, if you dont want to be "useless", give some of the money to those that need it and/or can put it to use to benefit the rest of humanity.

Barron

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

If my opponents at the poker table feel that I am providing them nothing of value for the money I win from them, all they have to do is quit losing to me (quit playing or learn to play better). Poker is not productive. Neither are movies, the NFL, the NBA, Masjor League Baseball, or television. There are people in all of those industries making a lot more money than I am playing poker.

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

What on earth makes you think that we owe anything to anyone just because we (fill in the blank). It could be golf or poker or skiing. Hopefully, you have developed enough character to do the right thing with your life. It sounds like you are at a crossroads and are looking for answers. Hopefully, you can take it upon yourself to live your life in a way that makes the world a better place. Giving money to causes that you believe in or giving your time to help people and causes that you believe in. If you have enough money and time to play poker and own a computer you probably have enough to buy "toys for tots" or dontae a turkey to the local food bank. It sounds like you have smoked too much weed and are contemplatinmg the vastness of the universe (ala the scene in "Animal House"). Lead a good life, be a good person, do unto others and try not to overthink everything. Don't sweat the details. Relax and don't take everything so seriously. Poker is a small distraction in a much bigger picture.

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

Asking "What good are poker players to society?" is well intended but barking up the wrong tree.

The virtuistic view of our job largely defining our contribution to society is simplistic BS. Becoming a doctor doesn't automatically make you any better for society in general than becoming a poker player. That's because, although the work they perform can be extrordinary and they deserve a tremendous amount of credit for it, it's only a part of who they are and what role they play in life. They could in fact be pedophiles or child molesters, like we've found some priests are. In that case they are low lifes who just happen to be good at an important job, but should otherwise possibly be condemned to death for their acts.

My perspective is based on this. I was a fireman. Great job that's well respected. Got paid average money for taking big risks. I've been married over 20 years and raised 2 kids. I look at the brain surgeon and the school janitor the same way. If both of those men do their job as it should be done, and both of them do right by their family, friends and others, then they both deserve the same respect as men. Of course the brain surgeon can impact someone's life in a much more positive way, but that doesn't mean he's any better than the hard working, family man janitor. Or poker player. You have to do more in life than just have a good job to earn your respect as a man.

Earn your own keep. Don't steal. Don't mess up other people's lives. Try to have a positive effect on them and help them when you can. Be responsible for the ones who depend on you. In general, just be part of the solution rather than the problem.

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

[ QUOTE ]
suntsu69 is right. Bulgaria is not a third world country. I guess it is more correct to label it as a developing one (which is a more broad category that includes some of the third world countries but excludes the ones with most underdeveloped economies). As much I hate to admit it, that is the truth. How else would you classify en economy in which the average monthly salary is about $200-250 (that is including the rural and not just the urban areas) and prices are converging to the EU averages? I won't go into GDP figures and other economic indicators, cause I don't know the latest numbers...

For those of you that do not know, which is understandable, Bulgaria is a small and beautiful Eastern European country with rich history and traditions. It has a booming tourist industry and its economy is definitely on the rise. The country is scheduled to join the EU in 2007... Take my word for it, I am voluntarily going back to live there after spending a few years in the States [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

PS suntsu69, pm me if you want to get in touch. By the way, did you call yourself after the author of The Art of War? Isn't his name spelled Sun Tzu with a z? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [haha, dai da ne se obijdame i narichame pederasi; prati mi chastno suobshtenie ako iskash. upseh s pokera]

[/ QUOTE ]

Skimpily clad hot chicks walk on streets everywhere you go?

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

Hahahahaha, "simply clad hot chicks" are literally everywhere. It is Eastern Europe after all!!! That along with booze, is our trademark [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] It is one of the main reasons why I am going back while I can still [do many things]....

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

I'm not sure if anyone has said this yet, if there were no winning poker players and everyone broke even every year in poker, the Government would out of millions of dollars in taxes.

We pro gamblers who pay thousands in taxes of other people's already taxed money contribute tax money which is put to whatever use they see fit. Whether you agree with what they use with it or not, it still is "helping" society. I'm sure all of us could get other jobs, but many of us probably couldn't make as much money as we do and the ones with jobs suppliment their income well.

And playing poker might keep other jobs open for people who also get taxed and might not be making as much or be on wellfare if those jobs were not open.

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

Nightwish,

I don't have such a strong opinion on the topic to spend much time arguing. Still, I disagree with your logic so I will give it a final stab:

Did you you read my post? I admit that it was lengthy and did not provide good examples, but the ideas were still correct. In my post I was arguing why participating in financial markets or creating art or whatever other examples were given are NOT like playing poker and THAT IS WHY you cannot conclude that since any of those activites is not hurting society so poker is OK too

[ QUOTE ]
These examples in many ways are fairly close to poker. Once you realize how and why these are not "zero value" or "negative value" activities with respect to society, you should also be able to extrapolate the same for poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. I already said, those acitivities are NOT "zero or negative values" to society. Never claimed they were and even argued the opposite.

2. My point was that the similarities between those activites and poker are VERY,VERY small/negligible/insignificant... Yes, trading a stock is a transaction and so is playing a hand. But that is pretty much where the similarities end.
- What is the purpose of buying a stock? The owner of the stock receives more money than what he values that stock at the time of the transaction. The buyer of the stock gains equity ownership in a company which is at least as valuable to him as the money he gives away. In any case, DURING a financial transaction, a financial instrument is exchanged. In the example above, at the time of the transaction, the buyer of the stock is better off, the seller of the stock, and either directly or indirectly the company whose stock is bought/sold is also better off. [Of course, the transaction might take place so that one or both sides instead of maximizing profit tries to minimize loss. Logic is the same...]. You also mentioned that the stock market fluctuates and that creates risk/uncertainty, which is also similar to poker. Very superficial similarity: the stock market fluctuates based on how companies are valued, not according to some random generating mechanism like in poker. In other words, if you buy a stock and lose money it is because the value of the company in which you are a shareholder has decreased, not because somebody randomly tossed a coin and you lost....
What is the purpose of playing a hand of poker? As I said in my original post, it seems to be for money to exchange hands. In any case, as I said before, the main reason why playing a hand is different from all the examples above, is that IN POKER NO GOOD OR SERVICE IS TRADED. SOME MONEY SIMPLY EXCHANGES HANDS according to how well the parties involved are able to predict and react to a random event (cards being dealt).

3. So to sum up, because of the reasons I mentioned above and possibly because of others:
- Poker is NOT like trading a stock, it is NOT like creating music and offering it to the public, it is NOT like any of the examples given.
- We already agreed that that the examples above are not necessarily harmful to society, so what does that tell us about poker which is NOT like any of them? Nothing.

That is why I don't agree with your quote from above.

In any case, thanks for the discussion. It helped me clarify things for myself. I guess I just discovered the hard way some of the reasons why poker is illigal in certain domains. [Yes, there are arguments for legalizing online poker but they are the same as the arguments for legalizing drugs. I mean, if drugs are legalized it would not be because they have a positive impact on the average person and similarly, if poker is legalized it would not be because it has positive impact on the average person.]

Again, did not try to preach against gambling. I will probably continue playing and I guess, as suggested, I will have to try to make up for it in some other way :-)

Bate

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

Poker players are like leeches. We contribute nothing and soak up the wealth created by people who are actually productive.

But casinos are leeches too and do the same thing. We are basically getting a chunk of what the casions would get eventually (aka idiots will throw away money on the lottery, slots, etc.)

Edit after reading some responses:

Great point, what obligation do we have to be productive to society? A winnign poker player is productive for himself. Why is a person under some obligation to benefit the "world" as a whole? A poker player is not a drain on society (like a bum on welfare) due to the fact the poker player is actually doing something to earn his money (outplaying stupid people voluntarily putting their money on the line, you don't voluntarily pay taxes for welfare)

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

I'd have to say I find the arguments that poker and/or day-trading are somehow "useful" very very thin. I don't think any of those are useful. My point is I don't think slaving away for 30 years at IBM is any more useful.

Oh yeah, and since I found poker, I no longer indirectly support the Columbian cartels. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] So that's somewhat useful right?

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

[ QUOTE ]
. Becoming a doctor doesn't automatically make you any better for society in general than becoming a poker player.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. Take away all the doctors in the world.

Now take away all the Poker players in the world.

Which has the biggest effect on society?

Surely that example goes a long way to demonstrating "value to society"?

Ian

Re: What good are we? As poker players, are we socially responsible?
 

[ QUOTE ]
OK. Take away all the doctors in the world.

Now take away all the Poker players in the world.

Which has the biggest effect on society?

Surely that example goes a long way to demonstrating "value to society"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Take away all the good people in society. Leave all the bad ones. How good will things now be? Surely you see that point.

The value of doctors is indisputable. Good people in general, in the masses, is needed just as much. Why focus on just poker players and suggest their contribution to that is less valuable?
Someone going to a cardroom everyday, tipping the dealers and waitresses, being friendly, polite and courteous to the patrons and employees, may not be curing their ills, but it'll always have a positive effect in making their average everyday a better one. Why isn't that valuable?