Weak-tight or well-done? TPTK, NL200
 

No specific reads, although villain seems more solid/TAG than most.

Seat 2:($78.30 in chips)
Seat 3:($114.60 in chips)
Seat 4:($279 in chips)
Seat 5: Villain (UTG+1) ($190.20 in chips)
Seat 6:($104 in chips)
Seat 7:($60 in chips)
Seat 8:($155.35 in chips)
Seat 9:Hero (CO, AKo) ($214.50 in chips)
Seat 10:($111.90 in chips)

PRE-FLOP
folds, Villain calls $2, folds, Hero bets $9, folds, Villain calls $7.

FLOP [board cards K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ] Pot ~ $20
Villain checks, Hero bets $13, Villain bets $36, Hero calls $23.

TURN [board cards K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ] Pot ~ $90
Villain bets $75, Hero folds.

Re: Weak-tight or well-done? TPTK, NL200
 

I would fold on the flop

Re: Weak-tight or well-done? TPTK, NL200
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

What would you need to continue with AK then? Surely you can't be folding this hand everytime you get a little opposition.

Re: Weak-tight or well-done? TPTK, NL200
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would fold on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

What would you need to continue with AK then? Surely you can't be folding this hand everytime you get a little opposition.

[/ QUOTE ]

From the OP's read this is most likely a flopped middle or bottom set. From a more donk'ish player and the mini-raise does kind of smell of a donk, this could be AK or KQ too.

Without a solid read on the villian this is a reasonable fold. There will be better places to get your money. TPTK is not the most profitable of hands the higher you go up in limits.

Edit: Strike the mini raise part, it was a bit more than a mini.

Re: Weak-tight or well-done? TPTK, NL200
 

You have no reads and no previous experince with villain.. If he seems Solid TAG a set is his most likely holding.

If I fold the flop I will ofcourse take a note and keep my eye on him, but the first checkraise is for free. Going to the felt with AK is all about reads, here you have none.

Re: Weak-tight or well-done? TPTK, NL200
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would fold on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

What would you need to continue with AK then? Surely you can't be folding this hand everytime you get a little opposition.

[/ QUOTE ]

From the OP's read this is most likely a flopped middle or bottom set. From a more donk'ish player and the mini-raise does kind of smell of a donk, this could be AK or KQ too.

Without a solid read on the villian this is a reasonable fold. There will be better places to get your money. TPTK is not the most profitable of hands the higher you go up in limits.

Edit: Strike the mini raise part, it was a bit more than a mini.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the villian is truely a TAG player, would he call the pre-flop raise against one opponent with 88 or 33? I think you win or split this pot more often then you lose to a set. If you are putting someone on a set with no read everytime they get aggresive, you are leaving money on the table IMO.

Re: Weak-tight or well-done? TPTK, NL200
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


From the OP's read this is most likely a flopped middle or bottom set. From a more donk'ish player and the mini-raise does kind of smell of a donk, this could be AK or KQ too.

Without a solid read on the villian this is a reasonable fold. There will be better places to get your money. TPTK is not the most profitable of hands the higher you go up in limits.

Edit: Strike the mini raise part, it was a bit more than a mini.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the villian is truely a TAG player, would he call the pre-flop raise against one opponent with 88 or 33? I think you win or split this pot more often then you lose to a set. If you are putting someone on a set with no read everytime they get aggresive, you are leaving money on the table IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

IME it is just the other way around. A TAG player is not limping AK from EP without doing it as a LRR. But they will limp 88 or 33 from EP and not RR, but cold call for set value. Classic set miner line.

I agree that there is a posibility for a split pot or TPTK vs. TPGK in this spot or even air. But without a good read on the villian I am rarely willing to go to the felt with TPTK on a uncordinated board like that, that is where this is going with that turn lead from the villian.

Re: Weak-tight or well-done? TPTK, NL200
 

I'd call and check-call the river. Unless I can put him on a set or p aces or k's. Most likely has ak, kq/kj. Calling him might slow him down too.

Re: Weak-tight or well-done? TPTK, NL200
 

I would expect to see KQ or KJ pretty rarely.

Re: Weak-tight or well-done? TPTK, NL200
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Weak-tight or well-done? TPTK, NL200
 

I think I might have been the villian in this hand. I limped AK mixing it up.

Re: Weak-tight or well-done? TPTK, NL200
 

I definatly dont think you see weaker kings here often enough to warrant going broke. Why call flop? What are you looking to pick up? An A or K change nothing, except maybe making it easier for you to slide your stack in there for some reason. I guess you are calling to see what he will do on the turn.. you could have saved 23$ if you asked me [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Its not a semi-bluff on that board. Solid TAG villain doing this with KQ? I definatly can't say I see that often enough. AK is somewhat possible. Some people do like limping it in EP. Split or near-dead. Fold flop. Or get better read [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Weak-tight or well-done? TPTK, NL200
 

[ QUOTE ]
I definatly dont think you see weaker kings here often enough to warrant going broke. Why call flop? What are you looking to pick up? An A or K change nothing, except maybe making it easier for you to slide your stack in there for some reason. I guess you are calling to see what he will do on the turn.. you could have saved 23$ if you asked me [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Its not a semi-bluff on that board. Solid TAG villain doing this with KQ? I definatly can't say I see that often enough. AK is somewhat possible. Some people do like limping it in EP. Split or near-dead. Fold flop. Or get better read [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

If I remember correctly I was trying to train the table to let me limp in ep more. There were a couple good players across from me, often having postion on me while I was in ep. It was difficult to outplay them with crap after raising it in ep and I was getting reraised with my baby sc's so I wanted to tame them into letting me limp from ep. I think that was part of my plan for playing this hand this way anyway, my memory isn't the best.

Re: Weak-tight or well-done? TPTK, NL200
 

Question to all those who say fold the flop. Why re-raise with a set on a completely un-coordinated board?

Re: Weak-tight or well-done? TPTK, NL200
 

Bet a little more on the flop. Fold to his flop c/r. As played definitely fold turn.

Re: Weak-tight or well-done? TPTK, NL200
 

[ QUOTE ]
Question to all those who say fold the flop. Why re-raise with a set on a completely un-coordinated board?

[/ QUOTE ]

can't answer that. Folding on this flop, IMO, is awful!!!

Re: Weak-tight or well-done? TPTK, NL200
 

I don't know about full-ring, but at 6-max I'm almost never folding that flop against an aggressive player.

Re: Weak-tight or well-done? TPTK, NL200
 

Come on now, folding the flop is horrible here (and extremely weak-tight). Good Tight-Aggressive players don't trust continuation bets and could put you to the test here with JJ or any non set pocket pair.

And you both have less than one buyin. I think you call here and see what develops.

In this case I think you call the river bet, but that is at least close.

Edit: oops read that wrong, its on the turn, i fold there too..

Re: Weak-tight or well-done? TPTK, NL200
 

A good player knows better than to build a pot OOP with an underpair to the board against the preflop raiser.

Against an aggressive player at 6max? Sure, I'll do the call down. Against a solid TAG at full ring with no reads? No, I don't like to risk my stack for a possible split

Re: Weak-tight or well-done? TPTK, NL200
 

[ QUOTE ]
Come on now, folding the flop is horrible here (and extremely weak-tight). Good Tight-Aggressive players don't trust continuation bets and could put you to the test here with JJ or any non set pocket pair.

And you both have less than one buyin. I think you call here and see what develops.

In this case I think you call the river bet, but that is at least close.

Edit: oops read that wrong, its on the turn, i fold there too..


[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone who is bluffing here often enough to make it correct to stack off with TPTK is certainly not a good TAG. In situations where the only hand you can beat is a bluff (and you have no significant redraws), it's usually correct to fold.

Re: Weak-tight or well-done? TPTK, NL200
 

Soah, what if villain isn't bluffing and thinks that he has the best hand with a pocket pair, a king, or an eight? Do you think those hands make up a big enough portion of his hand range to warrant calling and re-evaluating on the turn? Would your decision change if it's 6-max? I routinely make that call , but maybe it's a leak that I need to plug. Thanks.

Re: Weak-tight or well-done? TPTK, NL200
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bet a little more on the flop. Fold to his flop c/r. As played definitely fold turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think betting more on that flop will do anything. It's dry. You are either beat or way ahead. I think you will see KQ there sometimes but not AK. I think AK would usually limp reraise or just raise preflop frop EP. But this is full ring where I'm not as experienced. I think folding that flop would be weak. You hit your TPTK which is basicly all you can ask for with AK. I say call the c/r and see what he does on the turn. But that turn bet is where it gets interesting. Without reads its very hard to put him on a hand. It could easily be KQs sensing weakness and firing or it could be a set knowing you have at least a K for you to stay in this hand. I'm leaning towards set. All I know is that if you call this turn, then you are pot committed so you might as well shove. It be a tough fold on the turn but I think it might be the best play here.

One more thing is that the bet sizes don't really add up. Why all of a sudden charge so much? If it is a set that recognizes that you have a king why not milk you for a litte more? That 7 couldn't possibly have scared him. He c/r for less than the pot. A full potsized c/r would have been more in the 50 range. I think he made it a pretty easy call for you. Then why not make the turn bet 60 or 55. IDK, I'm just spitting out food for thought. Still a fold on the turn I believe.

Re: Weak-tight or well-done? TPTK, NL200
 

[ QUOTE ]
Soah, what if villain isn't bluffing and thinks that he has the best hand with a pocket pair, a king, or an eight?

[/ QUOTE ]

Then he's not a solid TAG.

Re: Weak-tight or well-done? TPTK, NL200
 

Are you saying that it is bad play to checkraise on that flop in villain's shoes if he had a pocket pair, a king, or an eight? If I'm going to contest the pot with those hands, I think I check-raise about 50% time and lead out the other 50%. Say villain plays like that too. Is it still a fold on the flop?

Re: Weak-tight or well-done? TPTK, NL200
 

good hand. The only thing you can hope for is that he limped in initially with slick.

If you'd bet pot on flop and he'd raised, im done there. As it is I might still fold flop, but call isnt awful on flop.

Re: Weak-tight or well-done? TPTK, NL200
 

It's fine for bluffing...

If you're not bluffing and you just can't wait to get all your money in the pot with an underpair on a Kxx board against a preflop raiser then okay, it's your cash to play with...