Is Nothing Possible?
 

The concept of nothing is difficult, if not impossible, for me to contemplate.

I'm not talking about nothing as in a blank sheet or if you look out the window and there are no buildings or trees. I'm not talking about an empty pitch dark room. I'm not even talking about the non-existence of earth or even the stars. What I mean is ... absolutely NOTHING! No earth, no stars, no space, no God or creator, no thoughts, no universe, no laws of physics... NOTHING! Nothing exists. There is NOTHING.

I ask you to really think about this. Meditate on it. Even the concept of nothing is something. So I'm asking you to imagine nothing and then suspend that imagination for even that is something.. Until you arrive at NOTHING!! NOTHING exists!

I question whether nothing is even possible and this is why I'm agnostic and recognize the possibility of a creator or even an omnipotent God. I just cannot imagine the reality of NOTHING, because even the reality of nothing is something!

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

By your definition of "nothing," the absence of the entire Universe, no "nothing" is not possible. It is not possible because the Universe can be observed to exist. Not sure what you're point is.

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

According to our current laws of physics, the universe didn't always exist and won't always continue to exist. So without a universe, what's left?

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

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According to our current laws of physics, the universe didn't always exist and won't always continue to exist. So without a universe, what's left?

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First of all, there is nothing in modern physics that claims the Universe will ever cease to exist. It's been a couple of years since I worked in the field, but I think I would have heard about something like that.

Second, physics does not and cannot answer questions about things external to our Universe (and that includes the temporal sense), since they are unobservable.

So we cannot state that "before" (I put this in quotes because time is part and parcel of the observable Universe, so it really doesn't ever make sense to talke about a "time" "before" the beginning of the Universe) there was "nothing." We do not know and can never know.

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

Better stop thinking this way, Stat. You are going to start turning into one of "us".

All kidding aside, I think this is where I start. I can't imagine nothing - the nothing before the universe was born -if it didn't always exists. I decide on God and go from there.

RJT

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

Nothing and infinite are both difficult to comprehend, as is finite and infinite existence. I don't think our puny brains will ever know the answer.

But it does remind me of that great Dilbert strip, which finishes something like....

Dogbert: It's because you have no personality.
Dilbert: I do so have a personality.
Dogbert: Oh no. We're not going to get into that 'Zero is a number' argument again, are we?

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

I believe the correct answer is that 'nothing is something' although that may just be a joke.

chez

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

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Better stop thinking this way, Stat. You are going to start turning into one of "us".

All kidding aside, I think this is where I start. I can't imagine nothing - the nothing before the universe was born -if it didn't always exists. I decide on God and go from there.

RJT

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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

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I can't imagine nothing - the nothing before the universe was born -if it didn't always exists. I decide on God and go from there.


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Translation: Humans have no experience with "nothing" before the universe, so I choose to invent a Santa Claus-like figure to conveniently answer all these unknowns.

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

I don't see how nothing could pop into existence from nothing.

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

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I don't see how nothing could pop into existence from nothing.

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So what?

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

seems like the problems stems from the way humans think. We love to make analogies so when we think of "nothing" we first think blank sheet of paper, well how about space... theres nothing there. but there is you realize, space is something, therefore its not nothing. I guess this is a roundabout way of saying that the unverise encapsulates all space and time, what is outside of the universe or what came before it is asking the wrong question. its like saying the answer to a calculus problem is a passage from a poem.the TRUE nothing is what is not in the unverise, but since we have no experience and no way of conceptualizing that fact our tiny brains keep spinning with no tracting trying to find something (no pun intended) to hold on to.

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

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I can't imagine nothing - the nothing before the universe was born -if it didn't always exists. I decide on God and go from there.


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Translation: Humans have no experience with "nothing" before the universe, so I choose to invent a Santa Claus-like figure to conveniently answer all these unknowns.

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What are you insinuating about Santa Claus here. Becuase I know he exists!

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

Is this like "straight line thinking?" If I know one thing to be true then this must apply to every thing/situation?

I smile whenever a deep space probe or photo baffles scientists. Or seems to contradict something they've long held to be fact.

For me, in my simplistic way, I find the answer is my inability to know how God "thinks." If He does, in fact think - as I understand thinking.

Man continually discovers things as we go along. And we continually find things we can't explain or understand. It's always been that way and I'm betting it's going to continue for a long, long time.

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

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I can't imagine nothing - the nothing before the universe was born -if it didn't always exists. I decide on God and go from there.


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Translation: Humans have no experience with "nothing" before the universe, so I choose to invent a Santa Claus-like figure to conveniently answer all these unknowns.

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Not quite. It is only after one turns one's head towards God that one is able to witness Him.

I am really not interested in responding to posts like yours - so I will refrain from doing so in the future. The only reason I did so here is because my original reply was perhaps, too general a statement. I assumed - and I am sure Stat understood what I was saying - it would not to be taken as a complete statement.

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

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Is this like "straight line thinking?" If I know one thing to be true then this must apply to every thing/situation?

I smile whenever a deep space probe or photo baffles scientists. Or seems to contradict something they've long held to be fact.

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You misunderstand science completely. Science seeks testable explations for phenomena. It is the domain of religion to hold untestable "facts" as being the truth of how things are.

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

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Man continually discovers things as we go along. And we continually find things we can't explain or understand. It's always been that way and I'm betting it's going to continue for a long, long time.

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Man also continually discovers explanations for, and eventually understands, things previously unexplainable and poorly understood. That's the fun part, the part which many so casually dismiss as the "unknowable workings of the mind of God" or some such.

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

I think, therefore I am.

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

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I question whether nothing is even possible and this is why I'm agnostic and recognize the possibility of a creator or even an omnipotent God. I just cannot imagine the reality of NOTHING, because even the reality of nothing is something!

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Seems like at least a couple leaps in logic here. Suppose it is impossible for us to actually conceive of *nothing* or to conceive of there being nothing. It doesn't follow that it is impossible for there to be nothing.

Suppose it is a necessary truth that there has to be something (i.e., suppose now that it is, in fact, impossible for there to be nothing). Why does this mean that there must be a god?

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

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It is only after one turns one's head towards God that one is able to witness Him.

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Yes. Once one believes in God he becomes much more believable.

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

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I question whether nothing is even possible and this is why I'm agnostic and recognize the possibility of a creator or even an omnipotent God. I just cannot imagine the reality of NOTHING, because even the reality of nothing is something!

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Seems like at lesat a couple leaps in logic here.Suppose it is impossible for us to actually conceive of *nothing* or to conceive of there being nothing. It doesn't follow that it is impossible for there to be nothing.

Suppose it is a necessary truth that there has to be something (i.e., suppose now that it is, in fact, impossible for there to be nothing). Why does this mean that there must be a god?

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RJT

The leaps are yours. Lestat does not attempt to nor does draw any conclusions. Stat, merely presents the issue for discussion.

Your points are of course correct.

RJT

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

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You misunderstand science completely. Science seeks testable explations for phenomena. It is the domain of religion to hold untestable "facts" as being the truth of how things are.


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Au contraire, mon ami. I understand the pursuit of scientists for explanations/answers/solutions.

I was making light of scientists and non-degreed folks who mock religious beliefs simply on the basis of non-provability. The can’t accept my acceptance of that which I can’t demonstrate to their satisfaction. I was pointing to their fallibility. I admire their knowledge and their pursuits. I benefit directly from them. They ask for my faith in them and all I ask is respect for and acceptance of my faith in God.

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

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Man also continually discovers explanations for, and eventually understands, things previously unexplainable and poorly understood. That's the fun part, the part which many so casually dismiss as the "unknowable workings of the mind of God" or some such.


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First, please read my reply to Trantor.

I accept and can understand the enjoyment of discovery. It’s the proverbial pot at the end of the rainbow. And every time that discovery is made I’ll congratulate whoever found it. However, I’ve yet to see the scientist who has the proof of whatever, that will cause me to change my belief in God.

I’ve known scientists and doctors who believe in God. They’ve made cases for the co-existence of the Theory of Creation and the Theory of Evolution. Personally, I agree with them and don’t think they are mutually exclusive.

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

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I was making light of scientists and non-degreed folks who mock religious beliefs simply on the basis of non-provability.

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no-one mocks religous belief because they cannot be proven.

chez

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

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no-one mocks religous belief because they cannot be proven.
chez

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I've not noticed that.

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

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I accept and can understand the enjoyment of discovery. It’s the proverbial pot at the end of the rainbow. And every time that discovery is made I’ll congratulate whoever found it. However, I’ve yet to see the scientist who has the proof of whatever, that will cause me to change my belief in God.

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I personally don't know any reputable scientists who would try. The best I can say about my own beliefs is that the God Hypothesis does not appear to be necessary to explain any observable phenomena.

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I’ve known scientists and doctors who believe in God. They’ve made cases for the co-existence of the Theory of Creation and the Theory of Evolution. Personally, I agree with them and don’t think they are mutually exclusive.

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I know plenty of doctors, scientists, economists, etc. who believe in God and see no conflict between some idea of a Created Universe and the scientific theory of evolution. I have no problem with them, and no beef with their ideas or beliefs.

What I dislike is the idea that because something inexplicable or poorly understood is discovered, the devout get a free pass for fingerpointing at science and scoffing, "See? You don't know everything. There are things we can't understand, aren't meant to understand, etc. Therefore God did it." This puts science in the uncomfortable position of appearing to attack religion, because as scientists we take away from religion that which it held special prominence over, the unknown, the inexplicable, the poorly understood.

And what I really dislike is the idea that the God Hypothesis can be yanked out of the closet and used as a panacea to fix the gaps in science. A God of the Gaps should be downright embarassing to the faithful, yet it seems to be gaining strength due to the sophistry of pseudo scientists and charlatans like Behe and Dembski, Gish and Gitt.

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

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no-one mocks religous belief because they cannot be proven.
chez

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I've not noticed that.

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look again, I think you've misunderstood. Give some examples if you like.

chez

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

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Quote:
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I can't imagine nothing - the nothing before the universe was born -if it didn't always exists. I decide on God and go from there.



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Translation: Humans have no experience with "nothing" before the universe, so I choose to invent a Santa Claus-like figure to conveniently answer all these unknowns.


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This is poor logic. Nothing may not exist, but eternity certainly does. Humans haven't evolved enough to be able to comprehend eternity or nothing or infinity, but most likely all three of those concepts are a living reality. In fact, it seems to me that these three things are the foundation of existence (and non-existence). So if such equisitely simple yet completely mysterious concepts are a living reality then why can't God be a living reality?

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

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This is poor logic. Nothing may not exist, but eternity certainly does. Humans haven't evolved enough to be able to comprehend eternity or nothing or infinity, but most likely all three of those concepts are a living reality. In fact, it seems to me that these three things are the foundation of existence (and non-existence). So if such equisitely simple yet completely mysterious concepts are a living reality then why can't God be a living reality?

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Nice paragraph. Your first sentence is a good topic sentence for the statements to follow.

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

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This is poor logic. Nothing may not exist, but eternity certainly does. Humans haven't evolved enough to be able to comprehend eternity or nothing or infinity, but most likely all three of those concepts are a living reality. In fact, it seems to me that these three things are the foundation of existence (and non-existence). So if such equisitely simple yet completely mysterious concepts are a living reality then why can't God be a living reality?

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Eternity doesn't exist, since time is just a dimension in our universe.

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

I am certainly not a philosopher. I didn't say it "follows" that "nothing" is possible, or that "nothing" means a God. It just seems to me that the former is, and the latter might be.

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

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I think, therefore I am.

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I'm somewhat familiar with this quote. I don't believe Descartes was ponticating nothing, but whether we can be sure that anything really exists. Do you think this is the same thing? Maybe you're right.

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

RJT-

I can certainly see how God fills in this gap for you. However, I cannot make this leap as easily as you do.

For one thing, I also run into problems when thinking about, Where did God come from? or how He could have just eternally existed. I believe you answered this elsewhere, but I can't recall your exact reasoning.

How do we know that the existence of another dimension for example, might not just as easily solve our problem with "Nothing"?

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

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How do we know that the existence of another dimension for example, might not just as easily solve our problem with "Nothing"?

[/ QUOTE ] In fact, the solution is simpler by a large ammount.

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

Defining nothing is a infinite loop. That does not mean that "nothing" is impossible just the exapmle of "nothing" does not exist. Nothing can only be "known" momentarily. It's as if existance has a way of fighting very hard for it's continued existance. I imagine that this has been going on for quite some time.

To grasp nothingness I try to imagie myself before I was born. Of course that "nothingness" only lasts for a brief time. As it gets filed with my knowledge of history.

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

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This is poor logic. Nothing may not exist, but eternity certainly does. Humans haven't evolved enough to be able to comprehend eternity or nothing or infinity, but most likely all three of those concepts are a living reality. In fact, it seems to me that these three things are the foundation of existence (and non-existence). So if such equisitely simple yet completely mysterious concepts are a living reality then why can't God be a living reality?

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Nice paragraph. Your first sentence is a good topic sentence for the statements to follow.

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[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

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The concept of nothing is difficult, if not impossible, for me to contemplate.

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And if YOU can't comtemplate something then you can draw conclusions about the concept from that?

Nobody 'understands' quatum mechanics ( thus spake Richard Feynman), but the inability for the human mind to be able get a conceptual picture of it doesn't take anything away from it's validity. Heck, Einstein, a master at visualization, struggled with it, and failed.

... am I misreading your claim?

luckyme

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

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Quote:
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This is poor logic. Nothing may not exist, but eternity certainly does. Humans haven't evolved enough to be able to comprehend eternity or nothing or infinity, but most likely all three of those concepts are a living reality. In fact, it seems to me that these three things are the foundation of existence (and non-existence). So if such equisitely simple yet completely mysterious concepts are a living reality then why can't God be a living reality?


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Nice paragraph. Your first sentence is a good topic sentence for the statements to follow.

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This was very clever! But my logic is sound. It's the same as saying that life is possible on this planet then why wouldn't life be possible on another planet similarly situated planet. The same logic applies for both arguments.


Another poster said that eternity doesn't exist because time is a dimension. Eternity means timelessness not time going on forever.

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

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Another poster said that eternity doesn't exist because time is a dimension. Eternity means timelessness not time going on forever.

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And if you want to argue that timelessness can't exist because there is nothing but our universe from which to exist in then that is false too. Even within our universe eternity exists within blackholes and "outside" of our universe many phyisicists believe that there are other universes where time probably doesn't exist.

Re: Is Nothing Possible?
 

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I think, therefore I am.

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I'm somewhat familiar with this quote. I don't believe Descartes was ponticating nothing, but whether we can be sure that anything really exists. Do you think this is the same thing? Maybe you're right.

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Absolutely. I am conscious. If there were nothing in the universe, how could I be conscious. I exist.