Middle Set facing lots of aggression, huge 3 way pot
 

This was one of those hands where nothing about it felt right, I hate my play on all streets. It was at the end of a long session, and I had been playing about half an hour too long. Anyway, the BB is donkish, he'll give me his stack with TPGK, he'll draw with horrible odds, and he's had a half stack for a while. He hasn't done anything too ridiculous though. MP is solid, a little loose pf, but decent and aggressive postflop.

My thinking at the time was that the flop could not have been safer for middle set, with no draws, and KK would have been raised PF. I still regretted checking it in a 5-way pot as soon as I did it though. On the turn, I called BB's bet thinking there was a good enough chance that MP or the button would bet, and I could raise while keeping BB stuck in the middle bleeding chips. MP's first raise could easily have been very light, he'd do this if he picked up the oesd, or with air. When BB reraised, I knew I had him, since he badly misunderstands hand values. MP's push is a tough decision, because he definitely has a hand, and the only thing I can put him on is 88, or a slowplayed 33. He might do this with K8 occasionally, but I dont think he'd do it often enough against 2 raises to consider it here. Comments on all streets welcome, thanks in advance for the help.


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter

BB ($237.80)
Hero ($616)
MP ($1095.40)
CO ($0)
Button ($525)
SB ($734.70)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $2.
Hero calls $4, MP calls $4, Button calls $4, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: ($18) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, MP checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($18) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $8</font>, Hero calls $8, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $25</font>, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $42</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $80</font>, MP calls $1066.40 (All-In), BB calls $191.80 (All-In), Hero???

Re: Middle Set facing lots of aggression, huge 3 way pot
 

Looks like a set of 88's may have got there or a set of 33's. When you re-raise though you need to make it like 120 or 150. This will give you a better idea of what you are dealing with. MP could have 2 pair as well, but I think 888 and the other may have 2 pair, tough spot weird hand. I like to lead sets in unraised pots, wtih boards like this.

Re: Middle Set facing lots of aggression, huge 3 way pot
 

Easy call, shouldn't even be posting this.

Re: Middle Set facing lots of aggression, huge 3 way pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Easy call, shouldn't even be posting this.

[/ QUOTE ]

With 600 behind I fold this pretty quickly. Unless big stack is donkish enough to do this with bottom set, which I don't think he is.

Re: Middle Set facing lots of aggression, huge 3 way pot
 

i think i fold this one, as your flat call/then raise on the turn stinks of a set, and MP obviously doesnt care

but why oh why not bet on the flop. its a safe board, sure, but the reason to bet on the flop is to build a pot.

Re: Middle Set facing lots of aggression, huge 3 way pot
 

I call. I think I see Kx, AA, 83s, 33, or some stupid ass draw far more often then I see KK or 88. Yeah, not betting on the flop made it more complicated, but it's still an easy call.

I don't know what tables you guys play, but I play with a bunch or moronic donks. I don't know why you always think everyone has top set, this isn't Omaha.

Re: Middle Set facing lots of aggression, huge 3 way pot
 

I agree not betting this flop is criminal, I lead with sets 90%+, not sure why I didn't here. Given that I didn't, does a turn raise of $140 make this an easier laydown after MP pushes?

Re: Middle Set facing lots of aggression, huge 3 way pot
 

I dunno, this was a badly played hand, with position between a donk and a thinking player. Avoiding tough spots like this is obviously key in NL, but once you're there you have to deal with it. This also isn't Pacific, where someone will push with all kinds of garbage despite 2 reraises. Maybe it is a simpler situation than I originally thought though, I apologize if this a boring post.

Re: Middle Set facing lots of aggression, huge 3 way pot
 

Only Hellmuth could lay this down...

Betting the flop solidly might shake loose pocket pairs like 88 before they hit.

I doubt Big Stack limped with KK - many more people try to be tricky with AA, esp short handed.

Given how you played the hand, if I'm raising the turn, I'm sending the BB all in immediately.

I cant lay this down

Re: Middle Set facing lots of aggression, huge 3 way pot
 

What do you put the Big Stack on Joepa that he would raise all in on a turn with the following action

BB bet, UTG call, raise by bigstack, re-raise by BB, reraise by UTG...

It's got to be a set, it's either 3's, 8's or K's.

Re: Middle Set facing lots of aggression, huge 3 way pot
 

Shorthanded, a guy described as "a little loose preflop" might be played something suited like 86 or K8 and caught 2 pair

Or 33

Two questions back to you:

1. OP has shown he likes his hand some by raising turn - any chance the MP is just trying to bully out the OP by raising huge and play against a player that the OP described as horrible? I think this might widen his range here

2. Any chance MP is trying to be tricky with aces here? I don't see many people who arent complete rocks limping kings because they dont want to be out flopped by ace-crap.

Who knows, maybe he picked up an OESD on the turn and is making a play with outs?

Also, there are no reads given for pfr%...if he isn't totally rockish he's maybe raising 88 pf shorthanded.

I just think the way this hand played out hero is ahead of a lot of things I could rationalize - esp with a sheety player all-in and wanting to just play vs him.

Re: Middle Set facing lots of aggression, huge 3 way pot
 

For those who might be interested, I took all the time and ended up calling. He showed 88. I deserved it for butchering a straight forward hand. Thanks for the responses.

Re: Middle Set facing lots of aggression, huge 3 way pot
 

I probably fold. Tough to laydown "middle set" and there are a million reasons to talk yourself into call, but i bet he shows you 88. Sometimes you just know.

Either he's got 33 or 88, and if hes good, hes not doing that with 33 to the action in front of him for all that money with smallish pot.

Re: Middle Set facing lots of aggression, huge 3 way pot
 

Everyone else has put in their reasoning, but I think that you have to call this because you really will see K8 or 33 a lot here.

That said, I don't expect to be a whole lot richer when the hand's over.

Re: Middle Set facing lots of aggression, huge 3 way pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
For those who might be interested, I took all the time and ended up calling. He showed 88. I deserved it for butchering a straight forward hand. Thanks for the responses.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about the other guy?

Re: Middle Set facing lots of aggression, huge 3 way pot
 

sets arent meant to slow play this much.. the flop call is verryyy shaky.. im raising the pot when it comes to me.. b/c anybody w/ AK is coming.. possibly KQ.. and any overpair to the 6 might see a cheap turn (which you've provided, giving them outsanding odds w/ the $4 calll.. you actually helped their decision)

waiting to the river w/ all 5 cards out there is being A. very greedy and B. will cost you far too much money in the end reguardless of your reads..smarten up.. play in your face poker and you will gain in the end.

Re: Middle Set facing lots of aggression, huge 3 way pot
 

Oh yeah, sorry, the donk in the BB had K6.

Re: Middle Set facing lots of aggression, huge 3 way pot
 

Similar to leading out with the under-full you're not going to get any action on this flop unless somebody has a hand.

Tatoo this on your eyelid. Unless you have seen this player make this move with air, (you said he's solid, so this is not some donk play) this is always the NUTS.

A note on slowplaying
 

Hey Soul,

If you are going to slowplay a set, you have to pay very much attention what card peels off on the turn before deciding to stick it in.

If the turn had been a 2,4,5 I would be all for gung ho getting it in -- he doesn't play KK like that preflop unless he is the biggest luckbox in the world. More likely would be that he just spiked a set and thinks he is good.

But look at the action on the flop -- check check check. Then look at the action on the turn when the 8 peels -- bet, call, raise, minraise -- HUGE PUSH. You played this street very sketchily because of the call/minraise. This is a tell-tale set. Most opponents won't sniff it out, but this guy apparently did. He knows you have a set and he wants to give you the minimum amount of info to think your way out of this tough spot, so he pushes.

My main point is that if you are going to elect to slowplay, think about what theoretical turn cards let him catch up and still be behind and what turn cards should give you pause.

In this case, with deep stacks and a lowish-set, a lot of turn cards could theoretically cost your stack. Even so, with this turn card and turn action, you have been told that your set is no good.

And also note that if you had potted the flop, the donk would have raised you big and the guy who spiked on the turn would have folded instantly. I'm sorry to point it out, but the one check on the flop created a catastrophe in this hand.

Re: A note on slowplaying
 

Thanks for the great response Wayfare, I think its very clear that I would have stacked the BB if I had potted the flop, instead I got stacked by the MP. I was very close to folding on the turn, for the reasons you said, it was one of those times where every feeling you have is telling you you're beat, but its not your A-game and you call anyway. The MP pushing to give me less information is not a play I had considered.

Re: Middle Set facing lots of aggression, huge 3 way pot
 

Well, with four players in the pot and an idiot BB, you can probably get your money out from him and force other players to fold any draws they might have. So, a bet into the flop would have been fine. I don't very much mind checking here, as you have a monster and so many cards can get you great EV from bad players (this include another club, spade, or diamond to give someone a draw, an ace, even a Q). On the other hand, against this rum group, building the pot early on the flop is probably the better idea.

Now: On the turn - MP RAISES all-in, BB calls. MP probably hit a higher set. This sucks. Small mistake v. big mistake. Let it go. Time to move on.

Argun