Hamas founder killed
 

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...l_palestinians

Amazingly, things are going to get uglier over there.

Re: Hamas founder killed
 

Good news: One less religious fundamentalist to deal with.

Bad news: There are plenty of religious fundamentalists (Jews and Muslims) who like to wantonly kill each other left over there.

More Bad News: There are plenty of disaffected people on who can be used by the extremists on either side for their respective killing machines.

Killing in the name of God shall continue in the "Holy" lands.

I think I will avoid Palestine/Israel for the moment.

Re: Hamas founder killed
 

From the Article:

Al Aqsa, a secular group responsible for dozens of attacks on Israelis, said in a statement faxed to The Associated Press, "An eye for an eye, and the retaliation will be in the coming hours, God willing."

Outside the morgue at Shifa Hospital, Hamas official Ismail Haniyeh, a close associate of Yassin, said, "This is the moment Sheik Yassin dreamed about. Sheik Yassin lived and died and offered his life to Palestine.

"Sheik Yassin was a hero and a fighter and the leader of a nation, and (he) is in heaven now."

Cars drove through the streets blaring calls for revenge over loudspeakers. Some aired recordings of Yassin, saying, "We chose this road, and will end with martyrdom or victory."

Mosques read passages from the Quran and two Gaza churches rang their church bells.

-----------------------------------------------

Here\'s a safe bet for ya
 

Violence between Israelis and Palestinians will escalate even further and will probably hit the United States as well.

Forget the characterizations for a moment and look at it from a practical point of view. Both Arafat and the Hamas leader, Yassin, have been termed "terrorists" by the Israelis. And Israel is admittedly extremely powerful and well-informed about the movements of these men. The question then about Israel's reasons for not killing them can only be answered thusly : Because Israel has chosen not to.

Why has it chosen not to? Well, as the article linked by Clarkmeister says, "Past Israeli governments were reluctant to target Yassin, fearing a firestorm of revenge attacks."

If that is so, let's ask ourselves not if Arafat or Yassin are criminals and not if they deserve to die. Let's ask ourselves if their killing (Yassin's for the monent) serves peace or serves a further descend into hell.

Then let's ask ourselves which of the two sides in the conflict is best served by such an escalation. (If you have troubles answering this question, try spelling "Bush Peace Road Map". Without laughing.)

Peace Now?

Re: Here\'s a safe bet for ya
 

This has killed any chance of a peaceful settlement for at least a decade.
What are the chances Sharon will "regretfully" have to indefinitely postpone his Gaza withdrawal plan once the cycle of revenge violence gets going? The Israeli government is deliberately engaging in the most blatant kind of terrorist tactitcs: provoke a terrible response from the other side to justify further violence.

A Safer Bet
 

Here's a safer bet for ya, suicide terrorist attacks will continue in Israel. When Hamas states that there will be retaliation what else is new? Like it really matters whether or not Yassin was killed. At least Yassin went the way he wanted to go.

Re: Here\'s a safe bet for ya
 

[ QUOTE ]
This has killed any chance of a peaceful settlement for at least a decade.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're dreaming, this hasn't effected the chance of a peaceful settlement one iota.

[ QUOTE ]
What are the chances Sharon will "regretfully" have to indefinitely postpone his Gaza withdrawal plan once the cycle of revenge violence gets going?

[/ QUOTE ]

Given that the Yassin assassanation was part of the cycle of revenge violence I'm not sure this has changed anything. What are the chances that Hamas will end it's terrorist attacks on Israel? NADA, the same as it was before Yassin was killed.

[ QUOTE ]
The Israeli government is deliberately engaging in the most blatant kind of terrorist tactitcs: provoke a terrible response from the other side to justify further violence.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've got one for you. Just substitute "Hamas" for "The Isreali government."

Hamas is deliberately engaging in the most blatant kind of terrorist tactitcs:provoke a terrible response from the other side to justify further violence.

Re: Hamas founder killed
 

[ QUOTE ]
Amazingly, things are going to get uglier over there.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems to me that the cycle of violence won't be affected one bit due to this. Two excerpts from today's WSJ reporting on Yassin assassanation:
Israel held Mr. Yassin responsible for the deaths of hundreds of people. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, a former army general, was updated throughout the operation.

The Yassin assassination was seen as an enormous gamble by Mr. Sharon, who is trying to score a decisive victory against Hamas ahead of a possible Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, but risks triggering a dramatic escalation in bloodshed that could turn the public's mood in Israel against him.

Mr. Mofaz, the Israeli defense minister, said Mr. Yassin was the "Palestinian bin Laden," referring to fugitive Saudi terror mastermind Osama bin Laden.

Gideon Meir, an Israeli Foreign Ministry official, said Mr. Yassin was directly responsible for the scores of suicide attacks Hamas unleashed since 2000. "He is the one who is sending children and women to explode themselves," Mr. Meir said.

and

Hamas promised a harsh response. "Yassin is a man in a nation, and a nation in a man. And the retaliation of this nation will be of the size of this man," said Abdel Aziz Rantisi, a prominent Hamas leader in Gaza who himself escaped an Israeli assassination attempt last June.

For the first time, Hamas also threatened the U.S., saying America's backing of Israel made the assassination possible. "All the Muslims of the world will be honored to join in on the retaliation for this crime," Hamas said in a statement.

In the past, Hamas leaders have insisted their struggle is against Israel and that they would not get involved in causes by militant Muslims in other parts of the world. Monday's statement suggested that Hamas might seek outside help in carrying out revenge attacks, since its capabilities have been limited by Israeli military strikes.

The militant groups Islamic Jihad and Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, sometimes at odds with Hamas, also promised revenge.

"This crime has affected every Palestinian, and the retaliation for it will be from every Palestinian," said Abu Qusay, an Al Aqsa leader in Gaza. An Al Aqsa statement said retaliation "will be in the coming hours, God willing."

Re: Hamas founder killed
 

I can't help feeling that the image a high-tech missile, fired from a multi-million dollar F-16 fighter jet being used to take out a 70 year-old man in a wheelchair belongs more in something like "Dr Strangelove" than real life.

Re: Here\'s a safe bet for ya
 

Of course Hamas is engaged in similar tactics. They're a terrorist group that everyone here roundly condemns. Nevertheless, the Israeli government is now clearly playing exactly the same game.
You're the dreamer if you think this will have no bearing. The Israelis simply are not going to be able to defeat Hamas militarily. The only way to end the violence is some kind of negotiated solution that drains away support for the terrorists. Instead this is going to double it, and there is zero chance of a drop in the violence in the forseeable future. You will say that there never was such a chance but that repeated lulls and offers of ceasefires demonstrate that simply isn't true and you just demonstrate your ignorance of the situation by repeating such uninformed rhetoric.

Re: Hamas founder killed
 

One dead terrorist = a good start.

My only question is, what took them so long? Israel should have killed this guy a long time ago.

As for Hamas' threats to attack Israel for "revenge," what are they going to do now, send suicide bombers? Gee, I bet Sharon is shaking in his shoes! There have been over 100 separate suicide bombing attacks in Israel in the last 3.5 years. When Hamas is already doing everything it can to murder Israelis, threatening to kill Israelis in retaliation doesn't really carry much weight.

Since Hamas has repeatedly shown that they will carry out terrorist attacks regardless of what Israel does, Israel should try to kill every last one of them (starting with their leaders), as soon as possible.

Re: Hamas founder killed
 

[ QUOTE ]
Amazingly, things are going to get uglier over there.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's amazing is that nobody made this observation after the terror attacks against Israel the last few weeks.

It\'s really as simple as this
 

Yassin mindfucked impressionable young Arabs into believing that the only way to make something of themselves is to become a "martyr" for the Palestinian cause.

How does he do this? By expounding and furthering the notion that it is a required duty of Muslims to liberate "Muslim lands" from non-Muslim rule. It is this fanaticism that is bred in the territories, NOT an opposition to "occupation". And it is that fanaticism that the Israeli government must quell in order to allow the Arabs who value life to step forward and lead their people out of squalor.

If you believe Sharon will deviate from any course he has set his mind to, you're quite mistaken, and Gaza will be cleared of Jews quite soon (interesting, Cyrus hasn't said a word about that ethnic cleansing.

Now putting aside all conspiracy theories and your projections of what you all think what your motivation might be for such an assassination, and consider the people who are the foundation of the fanaticism described above have to be silenced, or more Israelis will die. This is not a war one wins by giving in to the other side, it is a war that will only be won when one side wins outright. You simply can't negotiate with people who don't value life. Why they don't value life is irrelevant.

But a million times I'll say it: given a choice between lowering their quality of life or preserving my right to life, the choice is automatic.

A short-sighted policy to say the least, but the man is responsible for targetting and murdering hundreds of innocents, and ironically, he would have been the happiest if he knew the way he went.

Re: Hamas founder killed
 

what took them so long?

While there's tons of intelligence data, to get the exact time and place one person will be, when any suspicious activity is enough to get you executed, is not as easy as it sounds.

Re: Hamas founder killed
 

Some aired recordings of Yassin, saying, "We chose this road, and will end with martyrdom or victory

More telling words were never spoken.

They chose this road.

It will most certainly end in the former.

Blair Comdemns Atttack
 

If even beligerant old right wigners like Michael Ancram have condemed this its diffuclt not to conclude it's a bad move for Israel.

UK condemns 'unlawful' Yassin killing

Matthew Tempest and agencies
Monday March 22, 2004

Tony Blair today condemned Israel's assassination of the Hamas spritual leader, Ahmed Yassin, calling it a "setback" for the peace process.

"What has happened this morning is clearly a setback," Tony Blair's official spokesman told reporters. "There is no point pretending otherwise." "It goes without saying that the prime minister also condemns today's killing. We have repeatedly made clear our opposition to Israel's use of targeted killings and assassinations.

"We recognise Israel's right to defend itself against terrorism, but equally any steps should be within international law and should be neither disproportionate nor excessive.

Earlier, the foreign secretary, Jack Straw, accused the Israeli government of committing an "unlawful killing" and urged it to act within international law.

Arriving in Brussels for EU talks on tackling terrorism, he said: "All of us understand Israel's need to defend itself against terrorism which affects it - within international law."

He called the missile strike, which killed the 67-year-old Hamas leader and seven other Palestinians, an "unlawful killing, which we condemn".

"It is unacceptable, it is unjustified and it is very unlikely to achieve its [Israel's] objectives."

The foreign secretary added that he did not believe that Israel would benefit from the killing of an old man in a wheelchair. The shadow foreign secretary, Michael Ancram, said Yassin's killing represented a "regrettable escalation" of violence in the Middle East.

"I quite accept the right of countries to protect their citizens - and this man may well have been the instigator of many terrorist acts against Israel - but I think the sadness of this is ... there is no military solution to this," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

"The only resolution of the problem in the Middle East is going to be through talks and that solution is further away now than ever."

Mr Ancram said everyone knew the answer to the Middle East situation was a "secure" Israel and a "viable" Palestinian state alongside it on the West Bank.

Once the peace process resumed, America, the UK and other parts of Europe would "have a role in encouraging that dialogue forward", he said.

"But I don't believe you can fight your way to the [negotiating] table, that you can actually bomb, shoot or kill your way to the table.

"I think it has to be done by building confidence and restoring confidence and I'm afraid what has happened today is the antithesis of this," Mr Ancram added.

Sir Menzies Campbell, the Liberal Democrat foreign affairs spokesman, said: "It is hard to think of a more provocative act than this.

"Assassination as an instrument of foreign policy is illegal, and has a long history of making matters worse.

"The killing of Sheikh Yassin in this way will put back for months any prospect of negotiation." Labour MP Joan Ruddock, who recently returned from Israel and the occupied territories, also condemned the assassination.

Ms Ruddock, who travelled there last week with fellow British MPs on a fact-finding mission organised by Christian Aid, said it would only result in more violence.

"While I condemn suicide bombings, there can be no justification for the political assassination of Sheikh Yassin, the spiritual leader of Hamas," she said.

"Such assassinations are illegal and can only foster further violence.

"The Palestinians I met were in total despair as to how the peace sought by the vast majority of them and the vast majority of Israelis could be achieved.

"The conditions in Gaza and the West Bank which have just been imposed and which we saw last week are the equivalent of a lock-down at a prison.

"People will be prevented from going to work, going to school, going to hospital, and the sense of outrage and despair will only deepen the cycle of violence."

Afif Safieh, Palestinian general delegate to the UK, said: "I think it is a sad day and I personally feel ashamed of the world in which we live.

"I think prime minister Sharon is taking full advantage of the American presidential election year and the paralysis that results from that.

"This assassination will inflame the entire region and I believe that the world should be aware that every day we have an average of five Palestinians killed.

"I believe that today anti-Semitism is the persecution of Palestinian society by the Israeli state."

From http://politics.guardian.co.uk/forei...175312,00.html

Re: Blair Comdemns Atttack
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sir Menzies Campbell, the Liberal Democrat foreign affairs spokesman, said: "It is hard to think of a more provocative act than this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. Apparently this idiot hasn't heard about the 100+ suicide bombing attacks in Israel the last few years, including the attacks of the last few weeks. I guess murdering babies, women and children is not as "provocative" as killing a terrorist...

Re: Blair Comdemns Atttack
 

Actually "this idiot" is one of our most respected Parliamentarians, highly intelligent and well educated and qualifed (MA in Law from Glasgow, MA in International Law from Stanford), he's a QC and a CBE and as a Shadow Foreign Affairs Spokesman and Foreign Secretary has taken a commited and deep interest in Israel & Palestine going back many years. He has visited the region many times in a political capacity and has ties with various Israeli and Palestinian figures.

So perhaps you'll forgive me if I take rather more account of his views than your rather emotive analysis.

Re: Blair Comdemns Atttack
 

Regardless of his education, his comment was absurd and showed ignorance of the conflict.

Perhaps he would like to retract his statement.

Re: Blair Comdemns Atttack
 

So you are saying that the assassination is less "provocative" than the terrorist attacks?

Just because someone went to school doesn't make him immune to bias. After all, many say Daniel Pipes is an anti-Muslim racist, when in fact he owns a Ph.D. in Islamic Studies. I, for one, think he tells the truth, but I'm sure you would disagree.

Though, it would make more sense on a strictly logical scale that only the Israeli action is to be viewed as a provocation while the terrorism is more benign. Terrorist attacks generally result in little more than national mourning and policework/arrests by IDF soldiers. On the other hand, any IDF counter-terrorist action, including fence-building/arrests/raids on terrorist bases results in rioting and outright insanity in the Territories.

Re: Blair Comdemns Atttack
 

I agree with you that a bomb that killed ten innocent people should be regarded as more "provocative" than the assassination of a senior political/military/terrorist figure. But in practice it isn't, for the simple reason that figureheads are known and followed by thousands and ahve large scale followings, while ordinary people tend to be forgotten very quickly. If a nation's secret services planted a bomb in the US that killed a dozen people or asassinated George Bush, which do you think would be regarded as more "provocative"? If Hamas killed Sharon it would escalate the conflict far more than another bus bombing, and this will sadly escalate the conflict far more than the murder of hundreds of innocent Palestinian civilians by the IDF has. The entire world media has reported this as a significant escalation, not just Menzies Campbell.

I don't understand what you think this accomplishes. Will it prevent any more bombings? Do you think a 70- year-old paraplegic was intimately involved in the planning and carrying out of attacks or had anything useful to contribute to them? Yassin's rhetoric may have been deplorable but the bombers don't need his go-ahead to carry out attacks, as we'll no doubt see in the near future. Should other religious/political leaders that condone terrorist tactics be assassinated? What of the numerous right-wing rabbis in Israel who condone or even praise Baruch Goldstein's acts? What makes them any different from Yassin?

You joke about Sharon trembling in his boots at the thought of more suicide bombers, but Sharon ins't going to be affected by them, and it will be no laughing matter for the dozens that will no doubt die in the aftermath of this. You are kidding yourself if youbelieve that the number of attacks can't increase, or that this can't radicalise people further or recruit more bombers, or that this won't push back a negotiated settlement. Someone else will replace Yassin, a lot more people will die, and nothing will have been accomplished except Sharon getting a hard-on from directing another pointless killing.

Re: Blair Comdemns Atttack
 

It reminds me of British MP Jenny Tonge, who announced that if she were in "Palestine" she would have been a suicide bomber.

Re: Blair Comdemns Atttack
 

the murder of hundreds of innocent Palestinian civilians by the IDF has.

The word "murder" implies that the soldiers were given orders and their overall strategy is to kill Arabs. This, as we all know, is little more than a lie.

The entire world media has reported this as a significant escalation, not just Menzies Campbell.

The "entire world" also believed the earth was flat.

Will it prevent any more bombings?

In the long run, yes.

Do you think a 70- year-old paraplegic was intimately involved in the planning and carrying out of attacks or had anything useful to contribute to them?

Yassin has been confined to a wheelchair since he was 12 years old. He managed to stay healthily involved for the 60 years he was confined to it.

Should other religious/political leaders that condone terrorist tactics be assassinated?

Only if they begin to pay for the dynamite, counsel the terrorists, and organize groups of terrorists to carry out these acts, as Yassin did.

What of the numerous right-wing rabbis in Israel who condone or even praise Baruch Goldstein's acts? What makes them any different from Yassin?

Numerous? How many? 1? 2? And they didn't hand him the gun, as Yassin did. Nor do they actively recruit other Baruch Goldsteins to carry out further activities. Even the most right wing Rabbis now (and I'm thinking of Ovadia Yosef) are demanding peace in the spirit of Pikuach Nefesh (preservation of the soul), as no piece of land is worth human lives, Arab or Israeli.

Re: Blair Comdemns Atttack
 

"Only if they begin to pay for the dynamite, counsel the terrorists, and organize groups of terrorists to carry out these acts, as Yassin did. "

Someone else will do exactly the same thing now Yassin is dead. And dozens of people will die. When are you going to get it through your head that if Israel hasn't managed to achieve a military solution to the problem of 50 years, despite overwheliming miltary superiority int he region, it never is?

Re: Here\'s a safe bet for ya
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're the dreamer if you think this will have no bearing.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you stated in another thread:

[ QUOTE ]
Someone else will replace Yassin, a lot more people will die, and nothing will have been accomplished except Sharon getting a hard-on from directing another pointless killing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for making my case for me. Same old stuff.

[ QUOTE ]
The only way to end the violence is some kind of negotiated solution that drains away support for the terrorists.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok what sort? Outline the parameters and of such a solution that Hamas and Sharon will accept.

[ QUOTE ]
Instead this is going to double it, and there is zero chance of a drop in the violence in the forseeable future.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep more people killed at a faster rate I really can't argue with that.

[ QUOTE ]
You will say that there never was such a chance but that repeated lulls and offers of ceasefires demonstrate that simply isn't true

[/ QUOTE ]

Considering that I haven't heard one bit of common ground between Hamas and the Israelis I think that your statement is wishful thinking. There isn't a shred of evidence to back it up.

[ QUOTE ]
you just demonstrate your ignorance of the situation by repeating such uninformed rhetoric.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rhetoric? What post are you referring to? Where's the common ground between Hamas and the Israeli's on which a settlement can be negotiated?

Re: Blair Comdemns Atttack
 

When are you going to get it through your head that if Israel hasn't managed to achieve a military solution to the problem of 50 years, despite overwheliming miltary superiority int he region, it never is?

That is a fair question I don't have an answer.

But that doesn't make the Israeli religious elite nor the Israeli army anything close, on a moral scale, to a single member of the Hamas, as you tried to assert via your questions.

Re: Here\'s a safe bet for ya
 

"Thanks for making my case for me. Same old stuff."

Bit early to be hitting the hard stuff isn't it. My first statement implies that this will increase Hamas activities and escalate the violence. My second implies that it will not hinder the violence. These are not quite incompatible.

"Considering that I haven't heard one bit a common ground between Hamas and the Israelis I think that your statement is wishful thinking. There isn't a shred of evidence to back it up."

Which goes to back up my uninformed charge, as Hamas repeatedly offered to implement a ceasefire in return for an end to the assassinations and incursions. There is zero chance of any such offer in the near future. Whether Hamas and Israel ahve any common ground for a long-term solution is more debatable, but Rantissi has repeatedly made it clear that an end to the occupation would see a shift to political rather than terrorist tactics. Furthermore an ened to teh occupation and Israeli atrocities would certainly see a huge drop in support for terrorist tactics.

Whatever guys. Keep on with the current tactics. They've done so well in bringing peace to the region.

A routine bet
 

I find the knee-jerk support by otherwise intelligent persons of everything and anything Israel does a bit surprising, even after many years of being witness to such behavior. There's a blind spot there, that inhibits critical judgement.

I'd bet that such people would find it equally defensible and proper if Israel had sent a Special Forces detachment to save Sheikh Yassin from assassination!

Re: Blair Comdemns Atttack
 

"So you are saying that the assassination is less "provocative" than the terrorist attacks?"

No. I imagine Campbell's comment means its difficult to imagine a more provocative act *by Israel*. Like all reasonable people Campbell comdemns and abhors the continued attacks by the likes of Hamas.

The question is do illegal assininations of Palestian leaders help Israel's cause. Most people in the UK of all political views think not -- becuase a) it Israel loses more from such acts in terms of international support than it gains from reducing the terrorist threat and b) for purely practical reasons you can't possibly hope to kill all the terrorists as each time you blow one up you make a fewhundred more.

"Just because someone went to school doesn't make him immune to bias"

No but it does make them not an "idiot" as was suggested about Campbell.

Re: Blair Comdemns Atttack
 

That is not in general what I mant to imply; my post was about practicalities rather than morality. I don't believe such assassinations improve the situation for anyone. To say that not a single Israeli soldier can be as bad as a single Hamas member however is absurd. You can't seriously believe that every civilian death at the hands of the IDF in the territories has been some sort of tragic accident. Murder is murder, whoever does it.

Re: Hamas founder killed
 

uglier over there and over here too when the new batch of psycho terrorists go to blow us up, as well as the israelis.

even if ALL of them got EVERYTHING they wanted they would still keep on hating and killing each other. I have no love for israel and wish the US wouldn't keep supporting them at the great risk to ourselves. I also could care less if they palestinians ever get their way either, because they act just as badly as israel. The whole damn region should try moving into the 21st century instead of insisting on remaining in the ugly past.

al

Re: Here\'s a safe bet for ya
 

You write:

[ QUOTE ]
This has killed any chance of a peaceful settlement for at least a decade.

[/ QUOTE ]


I respond:

[ QUOTE ]
You're dreaming, this hasn't effected the chance of a peaceful settlement one iota.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you respond:

[ QUOTE ]
You're the dreamer if you think this will have no bearing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I contrast this quote with your statement:

[ QUOTE ]
Someone else will replace Yassin, a lot more people will die, and nothing will have been accomplished except Sharon getting a hard-on from directing another pointless killing.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's never to early to hit the hard stuff [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. All I'm pointing out is that the status quo remains in effect. Nothing has changed. The Israeli's position hasn't changed and neither has the position of Hamas. How could something that maintains the status quo have any effect on a negotiated peace settlement? Zero times 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 is precisely zero. Read it there is no chance, nada, squat, not a snowball's chance in hell for a negotiated peace settlement given the current positions of Hamas and the Israelis.

[ QUOTE ]
Which goes to back up my uninformed charge, as Hamas repeatedly offered to implement a ceasefire in return for an end to the assassinations and incursions.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what? These offers by Hamas haven't changed the Israeli position one bit. Apparently this isn't the common ground needed for a negotiated settlement.

[ QUOTE ]
Whether Hamas and Israel ahve any common ground for a long-term solution is more debatable,

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly! You're starting to understand.

[ QUOTE ]
Rantissi has repeatedly made it clear that an end to the occupation would see a shift to political rather than terrorist tactics. Furthermore an ened to teh occupation and Israeli atrocities would certainly see a huge drop in support for terrorist tactics.

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently this doesn't provide a basis for a negotiated settlement either.

[ QUOTE ]
Whatever guys. Keep on with the current tactics. They've done so well in bringing peace to the region.

[/ QUOTE ]

What tactics are you reffering to?

Re: A routine bet
 

How is this knee jerk support of Israel?

I wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a safer bet for ya, suicide terrorist attacks will continue in Israel. When Hamas states that there will be retaliation what else is new? Like it really matters whether or not Yassin was killed. At least Yassin went the way he wanted to go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell me where one thing I stated is false.

If you fail once, try and try again (for 50 years)
 

"If you believe Sharon will deviate from any course he has set his mind to, you're quite mistaken, and Gaza will be cleared of Jews quite soon (interesting, Cyrus hasn't said a word about that ethnic cleansing)."

I believe that Sharon is capable of anything. Sick-minded people usually are capable of everything. (The assassinated Hamas leader had a similarly warped mind.)

But, exactitude, please! When a nation's leader orders the expulsion of his own nationals from a region, this cannot be called "ethnic cleansing". You may call it "population exchange" (if there's reciprocity, e.g. Asia Minor ca. early 1920s) or "evacuation" if there's not. And if that evacuation is forced upon the departing folks, it is simply "forced evacuation". But not ethnic cleansing! Ethnic cleansing is practiced by the victor against the loser, e.g. Israel from 1948 onwards.

"Yassin mindfucked impressionable young Arabs"

Propaganda and brain washing can only go so far. You cannot have the mass resistance movement that is Hamas without a real and strong justification from real life. And in real life, the Palestinians find daily ample cause to get redicalized, to get angry and to take arms against the Israelis. In some occasions, even to blow themselves up along with their enemies.

Condemn the crimes of the terrorists as much as you want, and I do share those condemnations fully, but one thing is certain : <font color="red"> The militaristic solution to the Middle East conflict has failed </font> . It has been tried by Israel for 50 years but the Palestinians donm't seem willing to up and disappear.

Insist on the same route of militaristic folly (and ignore reality) at your peril.

Re: A routine bet
 

"How is this knee jerk support of Israel?"

You found no fault whatsoever with Israel's assassination of Yassin, not even from the purely practical point of view. You believe that the situation isn't affected whether that guy got killed or not.

Since I proceed with the assumption that you are an intellginent and thinking person, the above-described beliefs can only be ascribed to a knee jerk, unthinking support of Israel.

Re: A routine bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
You found no fault whatsoever with Israel's assassination of Yassin, not even from the purely practical point of view.

[/ QUOTE ]

Considering that in another thread that I stated that there would be more killing at a faster rate that's actually not true. You and Nicky keep trying to pin this "you're condemning Hamas but condoning Israel" position on me. I haven't condemned or praised either side in this thread. It's revealing regarding on how you and Nicky think. Pointing out that suicide terror attack will continue in Israel is merely stating an apparent truth.

[ QUOTE ]
You believe that the situation isn't affected whether that guy got killed or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the statement above. To the extent that the this action neither changes Israeli nor Hamas positions, I'm absolutely correct.

[ QUOTE ]
Since I proceed with the assumption that you are an intellginent and thinking person, the above-described beliefs can only be ascribed to a knee jerk, unthinking support of Israel.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice try Cyrus. Everything I wrote was true. Did you ever buy any of those tanker company stocks I recommended in a post to you awhile back. Hopefully you did, hang on to em [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: If you fail once, try and try again (for 50 years)
 

[ QUOTE ]
but one thing is certain : The militaristic solution to the Middle East conflict has failed . It has been tried by Israel for 50 years but the Palestinians donm't seem willing to up and disappear.


[/ QUOTE ]

and the terroristic solution? does it too need to go fifty full years before they too are too stubborn and stupid to realize their failure?

My question for both sides is this: if you got 100% of the concessions you are asking for, would your hatred not still consume you?

al

Why they kill
 

The question is do illegal assininations of Palestian leaders help Israel's cause. Most people in the UK of all political views think not -- becuase a) it Israel loses more from such acts in terms of international support than it gains from reducing the terrorist threat and b) for purely practical reasons you can't possibly hope to kill all the terrorists as each time you blow one up you make a few hundred more.

International support is hardly at the top of Israel's agenda, nor should it be. I think as Islamic fundamentalist terrorism increases, international support will increase.

On the other hand, when the Americans finally find out where bin Laden is hiding, and realize it will cost the lives of at least 100 American soldiers to pick him up and arrest him, do you think they won't fire a missile into the cave?

Re: Blair Comdemns Atttack
 

You can't seriously believe that every civilian death at the hands of the IDF in the territories has been some sort of tragic accident.

Avoidable accident, I'll give you. But not a single Israeli puts on his flak jacket and announces "I'm gonna bag me an Arab!"

Whether enough care is taken to avoid civilian death is at best debatable, but the orders are always designed to minimize casualties. No other democracy on earth has come even close to Israel's track record in the face of a an enemy nested among civilians.

Makin\' Aaliyah
 

The militaristic solution to the Middle East conflict has failed

You can't keep getting away with these implied lies! Negative lies must be based on current odds that I won't catch it, not the chance that I will miss other ones in the future! This is not a hit-the-flop or fold scenario.

The military solution is not intended to be a solution, but rather a defense mechanism.

The rule has always been that peace would be achieved on the negotiating table. But no negotiations under fire. Under any circumstances. Israel won every war, and as a result, it negotiates from a position of power. That's the way it works: The winner dictates the terms. If it doesn't, then there's no deterrent for Arab States to wage war in the first place (after all, we have seen the value Arab leadership places on human life - stonings for being raped, death for conversion, etc. etc.).

"If at first you don't succeed, dust yourself off and try again"