Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

Hi guys, I'm posting this because I was unsatisfied with the results of other posts on this subject in the forum. Feel free to skip the story and scroll down to the question.

My Story
I've been playing poker for about five years or so. I discovered the game in early college, and subsequently studied books, my results, theory, and strategy until I became a competent player. After I graduated, I decided to turn pro, moved back home to save on expenses, and did well for myself for about eight months, playing in casinos, cardrooms, home games, and online.

Also post-graduation, I became more involved in church and rediscovered my faith in God. Previously, I could be categorized as a lukewarm Christian at best. While I could definitively say that I had experienced the presence of God in my life, in my younger years I chose to turn a blind eye to His existence. Basically, I enjoyed my life more not following Christian teachings, rather than vice versa. However, maturity and involvement played a role in bringing me back to the church, and as a result I began to learn more and more about what it is that Jesus asks us to do as his followers.

Recently, my poker ability has been in decline, and my results have suffered as well. For one thing, I no longer had a "killer instinct" at the tables. I went away from reading players and targetting those that exhibited characteristics of weak play to just playing my cards.

As I encountered increasing disapprovement from my family (not because of the results, but because of the perceived "evil" from a conservative Christian family in gambling), I began to seriously think about Christianity and poker, and decided not to play another hand until I could reconcile my faith with my career. I know this can be done, because there are plenty of wildly successful poker players that profess to be Christian (Negreanu, Brunson, etc.)

My Question
Is targetting weak players against Christian principles?

The main moral problem I have with poker that I can't reconcile with the Christian faith is the game's intrinsic aspect of targetting weak players to maximize your winnings. A great situation for a poker player is when he is sitting with the biggest fish, the worst player, the least schooled sucker in the world and he knows it's just a matter of time before he completely cleanes the sucker out. Mike Caro (and common sense) consistently recommends the approach of playing the games you can win, rather than the games with the toughest competition.

In Col 3:4, Paul says "And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him."

Somehow I can't reconcile the killer attitude that I have when sitting down next to a loose, passive player who I know is itching to give away his money with that ideal. "In the name of Jesus, I take this pot from you because you play too loose." I don't see this attitude being something that Christ would approve of.

I'm open to all ideas and thoughts. Thanks for taking the time to read my post.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

Being Christian and a competitive poker player are not mutually exclusive in my opinion. (Theoretically, I suppose any form of competition is not Christian.) If your poker games is suffering because you have “guilt” about targeting (only) the weakest of the weak, I suggest you work on your game instead of your Christianity.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

I think Jesus is pretty clear on this one: "whatever you do unto the least of my brothers, you do unto me". So if you bust a fish, you've busted Jesus.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

Below are three threads concerning this issue:

#1 # 2
#3

This is a very, very serious issue for you. I struggled with something similar for many years (not poker) and finally left. I could get no cogent advice from other Christians and suffered for a very long time.

From what you say it sounds like you should quit. There are many verses in Scripture about conscience, and not violating it. Something may be perfectly legitimate for one but not for another because of this issue.

I strongly urge you to take a long vacation, at least. Not because of what your church and family tell you, though that is certainly not irrelevant and should be considered, but because you obviously have a conscience problem.

I can't stress too much how important this is for your peace of mind and future Christian growth. Money is one of the strongest temptations we face and it will be very easy for you to rationalize this. I can tell you that all the money in the world is worthless compared to your conscience, peace of mind and of course your relationship with God.

Be very honest with yourself. What do you think Scripture says on this issue - not poker necessarily, but pursuing a course of action about which you have doubts.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

I haven't read anything but the topic, but I can assure you with absolute certainty that there are no moral issues and Christianity is 100% wrong. Please note that this is NOT an opinion.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
Being Christian and a competitive poker player are not mutually exclusive in my opinion. (Theoretically, I suppose any form of competition is not Christian.) If your poker games is suffering because you have “guilt” about targeting (only) the weakest of the weak, I suggest you work on your game instead of your Christianity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the quick response. I was trying to bring up in my post a specific Christian principle that condemned a specific poker maxim, thereby speaking to their mutual exclusivity.

If I want to follow Jesus, and Jesus teaches that taking from the weak is wrong, and in poker I take from the weak, then it follows that poker is wrong to me.

What I seek to do is reconcile the two areas of my life, rather than twist Christianity into fitting my lifestyle. If anything's going to change, it's the way I view what I'm doing in poker, not my faith.

Thanks again for the response, and am interested in hearing what else you have to say.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

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I think Jesus is pretty clear on this one: "whatever you do unto the least of my brothers, you do unto me". So if you bust a fish, you've busted Jesus.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel like a lot of times the "weaker brethren" blanket classification is hazy in poker. A fish in 100/200 may be a shark in 5/10. I've been the "least of my brothers" in many of the games that I've played in, but by no means regard myself a fish.

I think what I'm trying to change is more of my approach towards the game(i.e. making the right decision rather than looking at the result, which is what good poker is supposed to stem from).

I get the feeling I'm missing your point. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
Below are three threads concerning this issue:

#1 # 2
#3

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for these references, however, I've read the first two already and felt unsatisfied with regards to their discussion about my question specifically, but I'll take some time to peruse the third one.

[ QUOTE ]
This is a very, very serious issue for you. I struggled with something similar for many years (not poker) and finally left. I could get no cogent advice from other Christians and suffered for a very long time.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] This is why I've decided not to play any more poker until/unless I resolve the issue. If you wouldn't mind sharing your personal experience with me (Perhaps through a PM if you don't feel comfortable sharing on the forum?), I think it might help me gain some greater perspective on the problem I'm facing right now.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

Wow, thanks for that. I guess everything's okay now.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
So if you bust a fish, you've busted Jesus.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty funny. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I would ask if you're applying the same rigor to your other endeavors, e.g., your job. Like, do you work at a for-profit corporation?

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

Since you clarified (for me) your position then I have to restate what I already posted.

Theoretically, I suppose any form of competition is not Christian.

I really think I can delete the words “I suppose” from the sentence. I’d have to give that some more thought to be certain, before I would want to go on record with advice to you. If you read NotReady’s post, I think he gives some good advice.

I would be happy to give you any more help with your discernment. But, I think a PM would be more appropriate. (Feel free.) Until this forum’s name is either changed to add Religion to the Science, Math, Philosophy or the word Philosophy is dropped from it, I think it inappropriate to discuss (here) subjective issues such as yours. I’ll leave the hypocrisy to the atheists.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

Every player has weaknesses. When you play the game to win you will have to either exploit the weaknesses or lose. When you see a weak player you know he is weak because you can identify his weaknesses and exploit them. When you see a strong player, you know he is strong because you cannot find his weaknesses, and he can find and exploit yours.
As your game becomes better, more and more players become weak to you, and less and less remain strong.
Play your best and improve your game. Go up in levels and be ready for stronger opposition. This is the goal of your game. With your attitude you have a chance to become one of the strongest players, because you are not satisfied beating the weakest.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

If you knew the personal lives of most of the people you played against, I am sure you would be more than happy to punish them as God's avenging angel.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you knew the personal lives of most of the people you played against, I am sure you would be more than happy to punish them as God's avenging angel.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spoken like a true Christian (in the historical sense).

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

Gambling is a sin. Here are some resources for you:

http://www.peapac.org/guide_98/98_sb_gambling.asp
http://www.biblestudyguide.org/bible...s/gambling.htm
http://www.rpc.org/morals/gambling.htm
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-g001.html

So, I guess the real question, then, is whether you care more about what God says, or playing poker. Easy choice for me.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]

So, I guess the real question, then, is whether you care more about what God says, or playing poker. Easy choice for me.

[/ QUOTE ]
poker, right?

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
My Question
Is targetting weak players against Christian principles?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a question that I think would not be even asked in other competitive enterprises. Many NFL players are quite public about their Christianity. They consider a hard fought game to be to the glory of God. Do you think a Christian NFL quarterback would refrain from calling a pass play that took advantage of the other teams weakest pass defender? In poker the worst we do is take money from people who voluntarily put at risk while at the same time risking our own. We do not impact our Christian brothers with great force and attempt to knock or wrestle them to the ground. No one ever (hardly) leaves a poker table on a stretcher. Few people would question the Christian morality of a professed believer who delivered a clean legal hit on an opposing player, even if it left him injured.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
Until this forum’s name is either changed to add Religion to the Science, Math, Philosophy or the word Philosophy is dropped from it, I think it inappropriate to discuss (here) subjective issues such as yours. I’ll leave the hypocrisy to the atheists.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not too clear on why you think my topic is any less appropriate than any of the other religion-based questions in this forum. I consider faith a part of life's philosophy, a set of guidelines and decisions by which people make decisions to live their lives. Just because I set forth my faith as a given doesn't make my argument irrelevant. Many philosophers including Descartes, Hume, discussed God and their beliefs in God. Could you clarify this point for me?

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you knew the personal lives of most of the people you played against, I am sure you would be more than happy to punish them as God's avenging angel.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if you're Christian, but I think it is the wrong attitude to think that being on a higher moral level than someone is grounds to be "God's avenging angel."

In Matthew 7:1-2, Jesus says "do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

The vengeance belongs to God, and it is His right to punish and judge, not ours.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a question that I think would not be even asked in other competitive enterprises. Many NFL players are quite public about their Christianity. They consider a hard fought game to be to the glory of God. Do you think a Christian NFL quarterback would refrain from calling a pass play that took advantage of the other teams weakest pass defender?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think a significant difference between other pro sports as competition/entertainment is that they are paid a base salary for what they do. No matter how bad that pass defender is, he's not going to have to pay the quarterback and receiver that exploit his weakness. Am I wrong about this?

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Until this forum’s name is either changed to add Religion to the Science, Math, Philosophy or the word Philosophy is dropped from it, I think it inappropriate to discuss (here) subjective issues such as yours. I’ll leave the hypocrisy to the atheists.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not too clear on why you think my topic is any less appropriate than any of the other religion-based questions in this forum. I consider faith a part of life's philosophy, a set of guidelines and decisions by which
people make decisions to live their lives. Just because I set forth my faith as a given doesn't make my argument irrelevant. Many philosophers including Descartes, Hume, discussed God and their beliefs in God. Could you clarify this point for me?

[/ QUOTE ]


I do indeed think it appropriate actually. But the politically correct folk who run the forum deemed (or forgot) to add religion to the title. Until they do, I decide not to give subjective opinions here. Philosophy is deemed intellectually honest here. When in reality it is merely a set of moral guidelines at best. Well, its use as exercise in logic is a good thing too.

Until the forum gives the status of religion that philosophy has or deletes the philosophy word from the forum’s title, I take a pass on giving subjective opinions.

Perhaps, I will give you a subjective opinion, maybe later or tomorrow. I am really only being self-righteous about some of the hypocrisy on the forum. It gets exasperating at times.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
My Question
Is targetting weak players against Christian principles?

Somehow I can't reconcile the killer attitude that I have when sitting down next to a loose, passive player who I know is itching to give away his money with that ideal. "In the name of Jesus, I take this pot from you because you play too loose." I don't see this attitude being something that Christ would approve of.

I'm open to all ideas and thoughts. Thanks for taking the time to read my post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Poker is a great example of Capitalism.

These 'suckers' when they leave the table go about their lives. They buy and sell, and usually not only for themselves, but also for their wife and kids.

They face a capitalistic society where the goods they buy have in some cases an 80% markup and said goods were made by local workers not fortunate enough to be born in a western country, and in some cases these local workers are children.

And you are part of this system too, not only with poker, but in just normal life. At the very least you are a consumer, in which quite regularly someone is profiting off your decisions, and if you ever sell something you are profiting off someone else's decisions.

If you're not going to 'leave' the world and join a commune or monastery then you are choosing to stay in the capitalistic society. To support yourself you choose to play poker.

Enter poker.

A fish sits next to you, you have two choices:

A) Maximize his loss.
B) Minimize his loss.

Let's look at option A).

Option A) is preferable because it benefits you (naturally) but also adheres to the correct way to play the game.

But option A) may benefit Mr. Fish also.

You see, if Mr Fish makes a bad decision to play with money he can't afford to lose, I'd wager Mr. Fish's family (and somehow, idiots always manage to find someone to mate with and bring kids into the world *weep*) would not be happy for this to occur, for their 'breadwinner' to lose money, which he can't afford to lose.

Now, your conscience says option B) is more charitable right?

Maybe you soft play him, maybe you don't go for ante steals etc etc.

Q. What does this achieve in the end?

A. You have helped minimize Mr Fish's loss, therefore you have helped Mr Fish's gains, and every gain Mr Fish makes only re-enforces the belief he has that he can win at a game you know he can't.

Now think of Mr Fish's family again, and what happens if you do soft play him, and he 'breaks even' that night, or worse actually makes a bit of money because you gave up some of your edge.

A. Mr Fish continually returns to the tables believing he can win, and eventually there will come a time that Mr. Fish will lose more than he ever thought he could, maybe rent money or food money, and Mr Fish's family will suffer. (he may even lose them)

Yet if you play the game as it's mean't to be played, Mr Fish may either decide to quit poker or get better at it, the end result is that Mr. Fish's family benefits rather than suffers because of Mr. Fish's delusions that he is a good player because people soft play him out of pity.

The ironic thing is, if Mr Fish sat down next to you, and you said to him "Buddy I care about you, you are out of your league, I only say this out of brotherly love etc etc" Mr Fish would more than likely resent you sticking your 'good shepherd' nose into his business. (as would the other players)

Sometimes adults have to pay for the choices they make, it hurts and its not fair, but thats life, and fueling their delusions through action or inaction only exacerbates the problem.

This is life as we know it, exploitaive.

If you wish to leave from it and live in the 'white' that a monastery or commune can provide, I salute you. But if you stay in the system, welcome to the gray area, it's very confusing at times and very complex, and boundaries can't be seen as clearly as black/white sometimes.

Also in closing, those links posted about gambling as a sin are BS IMHO. By their definition, investing capital into a potential new business is gambling and therefore a sin, just another example of close-minded people looking for easy conclusive answers based on their axioms that all gambling leads to destruction and using the Bible as a basis, when in reality the Bible isn't clear about gambling IIRC.

Tired,
SDM

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

2+2 Thread

This was a thread quite a while ago on this subject (not religiously motivated, just general morals.

I don't think I've ever included a URL in a post before, so if I botched it, I apologize.

My thoughts come down to this. I give 30% of what I win to charities.

It started from...I had many of the same feelings you have. I talked to a friend of mine who was a pro (I'm not one), and he said "well, most of the losers are gonna lose their money anyways, it might as well go to me!"

I thought about that, and eventually concluded that "no, it might as well go to charity".

I've talked to a number of people (see the referenced thread, as well as one with the same title cross posted in a different forum), and many others have adopted a similar plan.

One of the last things I said in the referenced thread was:

"his will also give you a sense of responsibility...kids will benefit if you get better at reading people. Cancer victims will have more hope if you avoid tilt. Teen Leadership programs will be able to flourish if you stop playing KTo in early position. It's a level of accountability."

Early on in my poker career, I felt I had a gift (not that I was the best ever, but I felt like if I had to devise a game to play to my strengths in life, poker would be it). As such, I should use my gift to help others, even if my gift is most easily manifested in selfishness and greed.

That's my two cents.

Josh

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

"I might as well leave hipocrisy to the atheists"

what an incredibly charitable and christian thing to say. honestly, thats great, thanks for showing christian love while bashing people who dont believe in the same thing you do. I guess your bible doesnt include the phrase "judge not"... must be that cool version I dont have yet.

second off, if you dont want to win at the poker table, then I would give it up. As someone who is incredibly well versed in christian theory and dogma, I would have a hard time saying that I cant take money from a weaker player. Honestly, when jesus said that what you do to others, you do to him, he hadnt decided to sit down at a poker table.

sometimes I think people go too far with the exact words of the bible. Let's think of who it was in Jesus' times who did the same thing: The leading Jewish authorities, who jesus said followed the letter of the law, and not the heart of it (Im referring to the time when jesus healed someone on the sabbath).

However, if your conscious is questioning this, then this shouldnt be your job anymore, and you can leave it with a light heart.

good luck to you on your future pursuits.





oh, and Im an atheist. I didnt say that at the beginning of this post because I know that the rest of the post would have been completely disregarded.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

"I might as well leave hipocrisy to the atheists"

what an incredibly charitable and christian thing to say. honestly, thats great, thanks for showing christian love while bashing people who dont believe in the same thing you do. I guess your bible doesnt include the phrase "judge not"... must be that cool version I dont have yet.

second off, if you dont want to win at the poker table, then I would give it up. As someone who is incredibly well versed in christian theory and dogma, I would have a hard time saying that I cant take money from a weaker player. Honestly, when jesus said that what you do to others, you do to him, he hadnt decided to sit down at a poker table.

sometimes I think people go too far with the exact words of the bible. Let's think of who it was in Jesus' times who did the same thing: The leading Jewish authorities, who jesus said followed the letter of the law, and not the heart of it (Im referring to the time when jesus healed someone on the sabbath).

However, if your conscious is questioning this, then this shouldnt be your job anymore, and you can leave it with a light heart.

good luck to you on your future pursuits.





oh, and Im an atheist. I didnt say that at the beginning of this post because I know that the rest of the post would have been completely disregarded.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

I was completely baffled. Now, I think I'm mostly baffled.

I'm guessing your response is to the OP, and not me. The quote you put at the top isn't from my post, so I'm not sure why you are trying to attribute it to me.

But I'm quite likely wrong still somehow. Wow. Dizzy.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was completely baffled. Now, I think I'm mostly baffled.

I'm guessing your response is to the OP, and not me. The quote you put at the top isn't from my post, so I'm not sure why you are trying to attribute it to me.

But I'm quite likely wrong still somehow. Wow. Dizzy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Josh

Did you become "mostly baffled" the first time he made the post or the second time he posted the same words? Or is that part of the baffleing?

Just joking, behemoth.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So, I guess the real question, then, is whether you care more about what God says, or playing poker. Easy choice for me.

[/ QUOTE ]
poker, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

AMEN!! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

no, I was talking to the guy who made the satatement at the end of his post that I quoted above.

I havent been able to use my normal web browser to post on the forums, and it seems that sometimes, using the browser I do, it posts multiple times.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

hi jcaesar.

you have done a brave thing by baring your thoughts on the issue, and i too have gone through similar struggles on the issue... here's my 2 cents.

A lot of people say that taking advantage of a weaker player for your profit violates Biblical principles (particularly the new testament) because Jesus taught not to take from the poor or disadvantaged.

But this argument misses the point that Jesus was absolutely intolerant of the unfaithful and the lazy...

The parable of the talents makes this clear...
"For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him." Matthew 25:29.

You should read this verse in the context of the parable, and then you will realise that the 'weak' ones who come to the table often do so because they are lazy in real life, and seek gambling as an easy way to make money... such an attitude is even worse than the one the 3rd servant in the parable had, and is exactly what the Bible declares as sin.

You will also see in other parts of the Bible, including the old testament, that God is absolutely ruthless against those who repeatedly sin against him. The examples are numerous and plentiful.

there is no shame in profiting from the actions of others who would not heed the Word of God.

I think what you have to guard against, is not being a stumbling block to others.

"Therefore, let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way."
Romans 14:13

If you actively try to entice others to the gambling tables when you know that they are susceptible to gambling or when u know that their talents do not lie in poker playing, then that is clearly wrong. instead, you should even be discouraging people whom you know are weak from playing.

Being a poker player is a double edged sword. u can take to the activity in an honorable and respectful manner like Brunson did, or you can do serious harm to the game like Stu Ungar.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

Thanks Josh, I appreciate your response.

I know Barry Greenstein has this kind of "poker Robin Hood" mentality, but I'm not sure if it works for me. I'll allow that giving a substantial percentage to charity is better than playing simply for profit (and if/when I reconcile my beliefs with my game, this will definitely be a model that I plan on adopting). However, to me, formulating that kind of a response to the quetion of proposed intrinsic immorality in poker is kind of like that of a crack dealer rationalizing criticism about his career by donating a portion his money to a worthy cause.

I guess what I'm really saying is that it doesn't matter how much money you donate if you find the methods or avenues of obtaining that money to be immoral. The money's still dirty, obtained my immoral means.

[ QUOTE ]
I talked to a friend of mine who was a pro (I'm not one), and he said "well, most of the losers are gonna lose their money anyways, it might as well go to me!"

I thought about that, and eventually concluded that "no, it might as well go to charity".

[/ QUOTE ]
Just because crack addicts are going to spend their money on crack anyway doesn't mean I should go sell it to them to give the money to charity. Or does it? This seems like an interesting point.

Thanks again for your input, I'll continue to think on this.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

SDM, thanks for the long and thoughtful response. I'm grateful for the effort you've taken to help me with my problem.

From a brief perusal of some of your responses in previous topics, I hope I'm not wrong in assuming that you are decidedly atheist, so I hope you pardon a bit of biblical reference on my part that will explain my thoughts. I don't mean to preach (I certainly am not qualified in any sense to do that) but offer it as a piece of Scripture that popped into my head when I was thinking about your response.

To be honest, I feel your post was the most thoughtful/thought-provoking one in the thread so far. It had me feeling like I was almost ready to get back into the game before I recalled the following story, so I'm interested in hearing what you think.

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And you are part of this system too, not only with poker, but in just normal life. At the very least you are a consumer, in which quite regularly someone is profiting off your decisions, and if you ever sell something you are profiting off someone else's decisions.

If you're not going to 'leave' the world and join a commune or monastery then you are choosing to stay in the capitalistic society. To support yourself you choose to play poker.

[/ QUOTE ]
Genesis Chapter 19
In this chapter, the Bible tells the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, two cities made famous by their wickedness. Angels of the Lord are sent to the city to see if the wickedness is indeed as bad as it seems, and when they get there, they stay with the most righteous man in the city, who is Lot, Abraham's nephew. I don't want to bore you with the details, but the gist of it is that the men of the city demand that Lot present the visitors to them for the purpose of having homosexual relations with them. Lot refuses and pleads with them, and instead offers up his own daughters for their pleasure instead. How is this better than allowing the men to have their way with the visitors? Here's what my Life Application Study Bible by Zonderman has to say:
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How could any father give his daughters to be ravished by a mob of perverts, just to protect two strangers? Possibly Lot was scheming to save both the girls and the visitors, hoping the girls fiances would rescue them or that the homosexual men would be disinterested in the girls and simply go away. Although it was the custom of the day to protect guests at any cost, this terrible suggestion reveals how deeply sin had been absorbed into Lot's life. He had become hardened to evil acts in an evil city.

[/ QUOTE ]
Later on, God decides to destroy the city for its wickedness, and Lot attempts to tell the people of Sodom to leave to no avail, because he had so completely become absorbed into the wicked culture that he was no longer a credible witness.

So, how do I think this applies to your post? The main lesson I learned through the study of this story is:

Just because your environment is immoral doesn't mean that you have to be immoral. Lot still retained his status as a "righteous" man by sticking out from the crowd of Sodom and refusing to become a product of his environment. Similarly, just because I live in a world where everyone takes advantage of everyone else, it is not an absolute all-or-nothing proposition. I assume Lot had many dealings with the Sodomites while living there that were unavoidably sinful because of his proximity (off the top of my head, deciding to wed his daughters to the wicked men of the city destined to be destroyed). Similarly, I live and exist in a capitalistic society where some profit can be judged as immoral. But I don't have to go out and make profit unfairly, to the best of my ability, and I believe that is ultimately how we will be judged.

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Also in closing, those links posted about gambling as a sin are BS IMHO. By their definition, investing capital into a potential new business is gambling and therefore a sin, just another example of close-minded people looking for easy conclusive answers based on their axioms that all gambling leads to destruction and using the Bible as a basis, when in reality the Bible isn't clear about gambling IIRC.

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I agree with this. I don't much agree with traditional conservative Christian views on gambling as getting something for nothing when I have been able to observe my own hard work and persistence in striving to make the best decisions over a lengthy amount of time.

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Tired,
SDM

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Once again, thanks for the lengthy post even though you're tired.


I have a sneaking suspicion that you're going to tear this reply up. =P

Edit: I edited it to make it a little easier to read. I hope I'm not being too religious here.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

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hi jcaesar.

you have done a brave thing by baring your thoughts on the issue, and i too have gone through similar struggles on the issue... here's my 2 cents.

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Thanks. I don't think I'm doing anything particularly brave, I just want to be able to make an informed decision on whether or not to play poker anymore. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] I was hoping I'd get some new avenues of thought that I hadn't considered before, and I have, thanks to everyone who posted. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

My main objection with your post is sort of the same as the one I posted earlier to Peter666's response to my question.

Reply to Peter666

Basically, just because others sin doesn't make it okay for us to cast stones at them. This is why I think I disagree with:
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there is no shame in profiting from the actions of others who would not heed the Word of God.

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As Christians, what we believe is that no one heeds the Word of God. We're all in the same sinner boat.

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I think what you have to guard against, is not being a stumbling block to others.

"Therefore, let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way."
Romans 14:13

If you actively try to entice others to the gambling tables when you know that they are susceptible to gambling or when u know that their talents do not lie in poker playing, then that is clearly wrong. instead, you should even be discouraging people whom you know are weak from playing.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this, and I have to admit that I am a purveyor of the concept as well. For example, I make friendly comments to bad players who suck out in hope that they won't pull a hit and run. One of the organizations I'll try to get involved with with donations if I do end up deciding to get back in the game is Gamblers Anonymous.

Thanks, I'm interested in hearing your reply.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]

Just because crack addicts are going to spend their money on crack anyway doesn't mean I should go sell it to them to give the money to charity. Or does it? This seems like an interesting point.

Thanks again for your input, I'll continue to think on this.

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To me (and I fully acknowledge that you may view it diffently), this is the crux of it. Like I said in the referenced thread, I've walked away from good games because I didn't think they could afford to lose the money.

If I asked you "is it immoral to win/take $1000 off of an opponent?" would your answer be a blanket "yes" or "no", or like all poker questions, would it be "it depends"? For me, it depends. If the opponent is a multimillionaire, I see no problem with it. If they are struggling to make ends meet, it's very immoral (in my eyes...).

A crack dealer sells. Salesmanship usually involves going out and getting/creating customers, whereas poker players don't need to drum up any action....it's at casino's accross the world and world wide web waiting for us.

Also, a crack BUYER is undeniably hurting themselves. A losing poker player is not necessarily. If they are, I don't play vs. them.

I think that this whole response by me could be summarized with that last paragraph, so I'll sign off just by repeating it.

Also, a crack BUYER is undeniably hurting themselves. A losing poker player is not necessarily. If they are, I don't play vs. them.

Please understand, I'm not trying to convince you one way or another. I'm just trying to show you what shed some light on the subject for me. I wish you all the best,

Josh

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

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Also, a crack BUYER is undeniably hurting themselves. A losing poker player is not necessarily. If they are, I don't play vs. them.

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I like this. Assuming that I decide to follow this poker model, I guess the most pertinent question is how do I tell the difference? It may be easy to spot the degenerate, addicted, on his last bill gambler in B&amp;M, but a lot of my money comes from playing online. How do I spot the difference between a rich fish and a poor fish in this setting?

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Please understand, I'm not trying to convince you one way or another. I'm just trying to show you what shed some light on the subject for me.

[/ QUOTE ]
I do understand, and I appreciate you sharing your experience. If I seem contentious to you, I apologize. I'm not trying to convince you of any point of view either, but attempt to exhaust all objections through my faith before continuing to play.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
Genesis Chapter 19
In this chapter, the Bible tells the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, two cities made famous by their wickedness. Angels of the Lord are sent to the city to see if the wickedness is indeed as bad as it seems, and when they get there, they stay with the most righteous man in the city, who is Lot, Abraham's nephew. I don't want to bore you with the details, but the gist of it is that the men of the city demand that Lot present the visitors to them for the purpose of having homosexual relations with them. Lot refuses and pleads with them, and instead offers up his own daughters for their pleasure instead. How is this better than allowing the men to have their way with the visitors? Here's what my Life Application Study Bible by Zonderman has to say:
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How could any father give his daughters to be ravished by a mob of perverts, just to protect two strangers? Possibly Lot was scheming to save both the girls and the visitors, hoping the girls fiances would rescue them or that the homosexual men would be disinterested in the girls and simply go away. Although it was the custom of the day to protect guests at any cost, this terrible suggestion reveals how deeply sin had been absorbed into Lot's life. He had become hardened to evil acts in an evil city.

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Later on, God decides to destroy the city for its wickedness, and Lot attempts to tell the people of Sodom to leave to no avail, because he had so completely become absorbed into the wicked culture that he was no longer a credible witness.

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For the record, I'm very familiar with this story. (well pretty much, some details slip my mind)

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So, how do I think this applies to your post? The main lesson I learned through the study of this story is:

Just because your environment is immoral doesn't mean that you have to be immoral. Lot still retained his status as a "righteous" man by sticking out from the crowd of Sodom and refusing to become a product of his environment.

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I think this is debateable personally.

First of all, it's very hard to reconstruct accurately what old figures were really like, at best we can speculate, and there doesn't seem to be alot of evidence about Lot compared to the evidence we have about some Greek figures, and even then some details are sketchy.

So If we say "Lot was x" I immediately think we should say "It appears Lot was x, but he could have been y". Whatever speculation you take an open mind must be kept ... that being said.

I don't believe Lot was an especially strong character from what we know about him from Genesis. If I recall correctly Abraham had to rescue him once before he moved to Sodom and furthermore questions must arise why he chose to stay in Sodom if it was such a wicked place?

Lot's wife apparently loved Sodom, so much that she looked back and it cost her her life. Looking at Lot's actions involving his daughters, his wife's apparent 'strong' will to disobey an angel of the lord out of her own desire, and the attitude the men of Sodom took to Lot, I would wager that Lot was not a man of very high self esteem and that while in Sodom he wouldn't have had much control over his wife which seemed very strong willed that she would disobey an angel. (shows undiscipline)

Yet I don't know, it's all speculation.

But consider this:

Jesus said to his apostles in Mark for them to take nothing with them and that if any town doesn't recieve them to shake their feet on the ground and that that town will be worse than Sodom if I recall correctly.

It's obvious Sodom was a wicked town, but its not necessarily believed that they were destroyed purely because of homosexuality, but also because of their inhospitable and hardened nature.

The sociologist Georg Simmel has wrote some great stuff about city life and how different it is compared to smaller communities, as has German sociologist Ferdinand Tönnies, who wrote about Gesellschaft and Gemeinschaft, comparing communities that are based on mutual aid and trust (Gemeinshcaft) compared to the more urban selfish community. (Gesellschaft)

I think nobody would argue that Sodom was a classic Gesellschaft city of its time. Why Lot chose to stay there is highly questionable, this is why I speculate his wife may have 'wore the pants', yet this is all speculation.

Lot may have been "righteous" but he may have been weak-willed also, and I believe the book of James says something like "a double minded man is unstable in all his ways" and if Lot was torn between being righteous but also letting two of his daughters be married to citzens of Sodom, offering the other two (he had 4 right?) to homosexuals to appease their desires, and his wife loved that city, I believe Lot could have been in the classic position Paul talked about in Corinthians (?) of being "unequally yoked" spiritually in a marriage, if so it's only natural Lot was against the odds.

But we could go on forever speculating and I may be very wrong, I don't know, but there are many ways one can look into historical figures.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />

Similarly, just because I live in a world where everyone takes advantage of everyone else, it is not an absolute all-or-nothing proposition. I assume Lot had many dealings with the Sodomites while living there that were unavoidably sinful because of his proximity (off the top of my head, deciding to wed his daughters to the wicked men of the city destined to be destroyed). Similarly, I live and exist in a capitalistic society where some profit can be judged as immoral. But I don't have to go out and make profit unfairly, to the best of my ability, and I believe that is ultimately how we will be judged.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, I'm not saying you should 'revel' in the society of capitalism and embrace it as an excuse for blatant self-centeredness, all I'm saying is that if you choose to stay in this postmodern greedy society like us all here, you have to accept that most of the time you'll be living in a "gray" area of ethics if you have a faith, and if there's one thing you can take out of the Lot story is that gray turns to black easier than it turns to white. (black being self explanatory, white being a pious life devoted to God)

And this brings us full circle to your original question regarding poker. The "white" say all gambling is bad, the "black" are apathetic, you are trying to live in the gray ... sometimes it's a path, other times it can be a tightrope, sometimes you fall, you're human, you get back up acknowledge what you did wrong and walk on. (and you believe sincerely that your God will forgive you, that is "grace" apparently)

But if you're not going to be a missionary, or a priest/pastor, or live in a commune far away from the evils of capitalism (though actually impossible as the tentacles of greed stretch everywhere) you're going to have to make do in the "Gesellschaft" and why is poker any different to any other job?

People get ripped off daily, by some dodgy salespeople who can lure them into 'interest free' spending splurges they can't afford, to sending them credit card pre-approvals they don't need and shouldn't have etc etc.

At the end of the day, although it's sad to see what are essentially 'nice' people be taken, the onus is ultimately on them to be streetsmart and wary about the Gesellschaft.

You can't play superman and protect everybody, try and they'll probably resent your meddling, as nobody believes they are naive. (we are all naive in many ways and we can't even see it at the time, it's only experience and being 'burned' which makes us wiser)

That being said, you're at the poker table and here comes Mr Fish, what do you do?

I believe if you're going to play poker you've got to just play poker, if you feel bad for Mr. Fish, when he busts out you can always go to the bathroom and say a prayer for him that he'll realize he shouldn't be playing and for him to be wiser with his money.

At the end of the day, your conscience must be your guide. If you honestly feel you are quenching the spirit by poker then perhaps you have to reconsider your poker career, but before you do throw those books in the trash, just remember that Mr Fish makes a living like everyone else, and if you give up poker you'll need a job too, and underneath nearly all jobs someone is being exploited and you are taking a part whether you are ignorant or knowledgeable of that fact.

Nobody is selling stuff at cost these days, it's all about +EV and greed, in some respects the poker profession is somewhat more noble because you don't have any BS delusions about your job (so many jobs come with societal propaganda) and furthermore unlike Mr Fish and his wife going shopping and being unsuspecting of clever marketing and advertising that play on psychology and emotion, the Casino sign is pretty straightforward "You may win, You may lose", seldom do any other people who ask for your money even acknowledge the latter is possible.

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I agree with this. I don't much agree with traditional conservative Christian views on gambling as getting something for nothing when I have been able to observe my own hard work and persistence in striving to make the best decisions over a lengthy amount of time.

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I believe alot of traditional 'pious' Christians intentions are good, but ultimately your conscience is yours, your relationship with God is yours, and the Bible doesn't say much about Gambling.

It's fine if they want to err on the side of caution, it's their choice and I believe a noble one, but it doesn't mean they are right and that you are wrong, only one person decides that and according to your faith the holy spirit is your helper to discern what is good and true etc.

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Once again, thanks for the lengthy post even though you're tired.


I have a sneaking suspicion that you're going to tear this reply up. =P

Edit: I edited it to make it a little easier to read. I hope I'm not being too religious here.

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If my words have helped you one iota it's worth it IMHO.

And no, I try not to tear things apart though occasionally I "fall". What can I say? It's not easy being human.

Cheers,
SDM

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]

I like this. Assuming that I decide to follow this poker model, I guess the most pertinent question is how do I tell the difference? It may be easy to spot the degenerate, addicted, on his last bill gambler in B&amp;M, but a lot of my money comes from playing online. How do I spot the difference between a rich fish and a poor fish in this setting?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thing is, if they are playing online, you know that they have some sort of home. They have a computer. They have an email address. They have internet access.

While those are not hardly oonsidered luxuries any longer, they can definitely be lived without (except for the first of those).

When I'm playing 100-200 on party, and the railbirds starts asking for $50 from whoever has the most chips (happens every day, many times a day), I always just say "sell your computer". Yeah, I'm trying (and likely failing) to be funny, but it's true. Players online aren't at the end of their rope. They may not be as comfortable as they'd like to be, and they may be losing money that they shouldn't, and the line is certainly not black and white. But it isn't like the degenerate in the casino who has no place to go home to.

Josh

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

You seem to be hung up on the "Taking from the weak". I think that is flawed logic. If there were a few sheep minding their own business and a wolf came and took their money it would be a case of the strong taking from the weak. It would be a completely different matter if the sheep came to take the wolf's money and instead lost their own. You're not rolling bums on the streets. You're engaging in competition with others who are there voluntarily. I don't see the problem. And I don't think people are losing their homes because of you.

I have a question. Where in the bible does it say not to gamble?

Regards,
G.I.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

"For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged"

Based on my criteria of intelligence and good looks, I got a lock for heaven baby.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

I have a great solution for live game play. After you bust someone, stand up and loudly annouce in front of everyone, " I'm sorry I took all of your money. I knew within the first five minutes that you were not a very good player at all. Can I offer to give you your money back ? Come on, how much did you start with I feel terrible."

* It will be the truth.
* He will not take the money.
* He will probably leave (a good thing in some ways bad in others)
* A new player with fresh money will be joining you soon.