Protecting my overpair
 

Very early in the session, no stats/reads.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 caps</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (15 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (15 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

If this were 3/6, I'd say that your opponent has KK or AA for sure. But it's 5/10 so he could have a lot of hands that you beat (77+, AK, AQ, AJ)

With no reads, I think you played it well.

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

Looks standard, though you have to think you are pretty far behind most of the time after a capped flop and being raised on the turn after a 3 bet. Unless this guy caps with more than QQ-AA and AK.

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

The turn raise looks like trouble to me.

But that's 3/6. I don't know 5/10 yet, really.

I think it's fine.

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

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The turn raise looks like trouble to me.

But that's 3/6. I don't know 5/10 yet, really.


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Turn raises are more suspicious in 5/10 than 3/6, but I don't think they're *that* suspicious.

This hand may be standard, but it shouldn't be the standard. I think if we're always calling down here, we have a leak. I just recognized that this is a leak for me, and I'm going to try to plug it.

Sure, sometimes he has TT, but the vast majority he has QQ-AA, and it's -EV to call down 2 more and find out. Regardless of results, I -- and all of you -- should fold to the turn raise here.

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

I disagree. I think the correct play requires stats/reads. Against a rock, you definitely fold.

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

Yeah, yeah. But I've just been bullied into calling down with the best hand at 5/10 so often now, after just over 1K hands.

I was an eagle at 5/10 for a stretch, which felt weird. (Edit: I have, however, now resumed being a TAG, though I'm not sLA-A yet [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img].)

I haven't adjusted yet.

And I don't know how good it is to mix 5/10 full and 3/6 6-max, but that's what I've been doing.

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

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I disagree. I think the correct play requires stats/reads.

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Obviously reads are better than no reads. But if it's an unknown, you should be folding to the turn raise. Occasionally you'll be wrong because you didn't have a read that he was a LAG. But the probability is that you're beat. Calling down is -EV.

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

True. I think that in general, I need to fold more on the turn to a raise, particularly a check raise.

Thanks for the advice and illustration. I don't play 5/10 much, but at 3/6 I would expect KK-AA about 80% of the time here.

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

I still think the pots big enough to warrant a call down like you did.

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

[ QUOTE ]
True. I think that in general, I need to fold more on the turn to a raise, particularly a check raise.

Thanks for the advice and illustration. I don't play 5/10 much, but at 3/6 I would expect KK-AA about 80% of the time here.

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Without doing the math, let me just say that if it's only 80% (we should throw QQ in there, though), I think you should continue.

And 5/10 isn't 3/6. I've learned that much. I may not have learned how to adjust yet, but I have learned they're not the same game.

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

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I would expect KK-AA about 80% of the time here.

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If that's the case, you should call down since you're getting 15:2 to call down. But I think, especially throwing QQ in there, we're a loser 90% of the time.

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

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If this were 3/6, I'd say that your opponent has KK or AA for sure. But it's 5/10 so he could have a lot of hands that you beat (77+, AK, AQ, AJ)

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People will raise the turn in this situation with AJ at 5/10?

[censored] that [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

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Sure, sometimes he has TT, but the vast majority he has QQ-AA, and it's -EV to call down 2 more and find out. Regardless of results, I -- and all of you -- should fold to the turn raise here.

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If you believe TT is possible(which I would and maybe more hands you can beat) than I don't see how it can be -EV to call down. That should put you at 25% chance to win.

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

[ QUOTE ]
If this were 3/6, I'd say that your opponent has KK or AA for sure. But it's 5/10 so he could have a lot of hands that you beat (77+, AK, AQ, AJ)

With no reads, I think you played it well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your range is too broad for no reads. After the PF cap we can rule out AJs/o, AQo,...hands like that. The turn raise kind of confirms it is a overpair, and I am assuming with no reads you have to give credit for at least TT.

Depending upon the read I would fold this often. The more aggressive the opponent the more likely I am to call down. But there are many players I would laydown against. So not too cop out, but I need reads. But getting 7-1 against a player who just took a value extraction line on me after capping PF.

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

This is a case where the flop 3-bet helps you control how many bets get you to showdown as much as anything else. You play fast on the flop and basically make sure that you aren't spraying 4 BBs on the big streets, which, almost always means you lose unimproved.

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

since mp2 likely has a higher overpair I c/c the turn and river, your not protecting anymore, its HU.

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

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since mp2 likely has a higher overpair I c/c the turn and river, your not protecting anymore, its HU.

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3-betting the flop and checking the turn to give 6 outers a free river is very bad poker.

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

I recant I bet/fold the turn.

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

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I recant I bet/fold the turn.

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That might be worse.

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

ok. I bet, call down.

Is that the perfect line? - I'm confused, here I think we're beat 90% of the time here if not more.

Sfer, I know your an awesome player but can you please elaborate a bit on your posts?

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

[ QUOTE ]
ok. I bet, call down.

Is that the perfect line? - I'm confused, here I think we're beat 90% of the time here if not more.

Sfer, I know your an awesome player but can you please elaborate a bit on your posts?

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He's unknown. Folding an overpair to unknowns is not in my repetoire.

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

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He's unknown. Folding an overpair to unknowns is not in my repetoire.

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So then you 3-bet the flop, bet/call the turn and c/c the river?

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

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Flop: (15 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Hero calls.


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Protecting your overpair? From who?

UTG+1 is already involved in the pot, and with this type of board - assuming he doesn't have the 2, is only drawing to a possible two outs. Do you want protection against a two outer?

The stop and go on the turn is confusing a bit. I probably call down hoping to see TT.

However given the cap PF by MP2 - does anyone Check-Call this down at the turn. (HPFAP - Pg 133-135)

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

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since mp2 likely has a higher overpair I c/c the turn and river, your not protecting anymore, its HU.

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3-betting the flop and checking the turn to give 6 outers a free river is very bad poker.

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I would agree offering up free river is pooey, however, it seems like your not "listening" to the PF action.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

I'm going against the crowd on this one and suggesting something else.

On the flop, he had the opportunity to 4-bet and didn't. Why? Was he waiting till the turn to put another bet in, or was he scared of being beat? Now, I know you don't have a read on him, but he might have a read on you, even if it's wrong. What does he put you on? You have to ask that question.

He might have you on AK. If he has 77-TT, then he believes he's got you beat even though he doesn't. He might have JJ-KK in which case he think he might have the best hand but isn't sure. He might have AA in which case he's sure he has the best hand, and does. I don't put him on two overcards since he raised the flop.

Now, if I am MP2, then I most definetly raise the turn. If my oppenent has AK (or any non-PP), then my opponent will most likely fold or maybe cold-call, in which case I'm going to lead on the river as well hoping to pick up the pot. If my opponent re-raises (and I have any hand less than AA), then I will consider folding to what appears to be a higher PP. Finally, if my oppenent re-raises (and I have AA), then I will cap.

It costs 2BBs to cold-call the turn and river and see a showdown, in which case the best hand wins.

It costs 2BBs to re-raise the turn and possibly cause MP2 to fold a better hand, while at the same time folding to a cap by MP2. The only down-side is that if MP2 calls the turn re-raise, then you will be forced to put in another bet on the river (giving MP2 another chance to fold), totalling 3BBs to see a showdown, if he calls.

This may not be the best way to play the hand, but it does give you a better chance of winning if your hand is beat by QQ or KK.

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

If you think that QQ or KK is folding I have a bridge to sell your drunk ass.

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

His play basically screams AA/KK/QQ. I don't play 5/10 but at 2/4, 3/6 I still tend to call these down much. Since he is unknown I don't think a calldown is too bad. With appropriate reads this is probably a correct but difficult fold.

Re: Protecting my overpair
 

IMHO, and after having read the replies up until this point, and given that the villain is being defined as an unknown, hero's turn decision after being raised is a function of hero's default view of an unlnown. there are those of us who view unknowns as mildly retarted while others of us view unknowns as mildly reasonable.

OP appears to view an unknown as mildly reasonable and, as such, feels as if now a fold was in order. I agree. With TT and possibly AK spades (allowing for a trun semi-bluff) being the only likely hands that villain holds that hero beats, laydown is prudent. Villain's line (not capping the flop) while holding a big PP is understandable hoping to gain an extra sb at showdown.

If one was to say to me that villain's range of hands when he raised the turn includes AKo, then in that case a call down seems in order. If AK is not a real consideration then I don't see how hero can call the turn raise except for, OK, the metagame issue of folding for 1 bet on the turn and the awkwardness of appearing weak and thinking that the table will now take shots at you.