Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

I cant seem to be able to beat 2/4 games on a constant basis although i seem to do good at 10/20 games......do you think you need to be able to crush a 2/4 game regulary before moving up in limits or not?

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

play the highest game you can. why play 2/4 if you have the money for 10/20?

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

I dont have the proper bankroll to play regulary at 10/20...just by taking shots at it ive won 75 percent of the time

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

Sounds like a classic case of small sample size. How many hours of each are we talking?

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

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I cant seem to be able to beat 2/4 games on a constant basis although i seem to do good at 10/20 games......do you think you need to be able to crush a 2/4 game regulary before moving up in limits or not?

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Ignore every post you read here except for mine, as you are likely going to get many sarcastic repsonses telling you to move to 50/100. Yes, you need to be able to beat 2/4 first. You also need to understand short-term variance, which you likely do not. Good luck.

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

70% of the time? Move up to $50/100 immediately!!

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

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I cant seem to be able to beat 2/4 games on a constant basis although i seem to do good at 10/20 games......do you think you need to be able to crush a 2/4 game regulary before moving up in limits or not?

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Ignore every post you read here except for mine, as you are likely going to get many sarcastic repsonses telling you to move to 50/100. Yes, you need to be able to beat 2/4 first. You also need to understand short-term variance, which you likely do not. Good luck.

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actually i would ignore this advice - casino 2/4 is like bingo with cards - if you think playing games that preflop cap with 7 players is gonna help you in the long run then have at it, otherwise go higher (presuming you are a winning online player) i prefer 6/12 or higher where calling a reraise may cost a man an hours wage



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Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

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actually i would ignore this advice - casino 2/4 is like bingo with cards - if you think playing games that preflop cap with 7 players is gonna help you in the long run then have at it, otherwise go higher (presuming you are a winning online player) i prefer 6/12 or higher where calling a reraise may cost a man an hours wage

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If you can't beat low limits which are the easiest games to beat- you can't beat anything higher adn most on 2+2 would agree with me. You want 7 donks to a flop in every game you will ever play the rest of your life! But I do agree that the style needed is different.

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

Beating no fold'em games is important, because the play required to beat them is so simple. Until someone is totally comfortable with the decisions at 2/4 or 3/6, the marginal situations that produce profits at 10/20 are much more difficult to handle.
2/4 is the land of very high variance, but the poker is quite simple and profitable. Fully understanding how to adjust and crush them leads to better adjustments at 6/12 & up when those games get really loose-- instead of "oh boy, now it's Bingo, the idiots are here", you can do little dances in your head imagining you're back at 2/4.
Most who claim 6/12 is easier to beat than 2/4 have exactly one style of play, think that style works better at 6/12, and have little idea how to adjust to opponents who suck. They also tend to say things like "you can't ever bluff at 2/4-- that's not poker." Getting reliably called by bottom pair is MUCH better than stealing an occasional pot, I believe.
-curtis

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

Good point. I don't think you should ever bluff at 2/4. Only rarely. You're likely to get called everytime, especially against multiple opponents.

The 2/4 games aren't hard to beat, they just take a different strategy. Of course rake plays a bigger role as well. So does tipping. And variance is higher since there are so many people seeing every flop and so many maniacs, but when those Aces hold up against 7 people, and it was capped on all streets, you'll be stacking chips for a whole orbit. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is your friend

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

If you have the bankroll I would play 4-8 instead of 2-4. The players are just as terrible, and you can make a lot more money. I don't even know what "crushing" a live 2-4 game is, $5 an hour?, $7? I mean with that much money coming out of the pot every hand there is only so much you can win.
It takes along time to really know how well you are playing in live games. I would play at least 500+ hours at the 4-8 level, and then if you are crushing that game move up.

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

Have you checked out 2+2's book Small Stakes Hold'Em? It focuses on the sort of no-fold'em games you may be having trouble beating. I usually play 1-2NL, but I am studying SSHE for those times when those tables are the only ones open and I want to play while I wait for NL. The mindset is different from what you would need at 10/20. If your bankroll is more suited to 2/4, invest a bit of it in SSHE and see if this makes a difference.

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

Definitely true, but, as other posters have mentioned, watch the rake! While 2/4 is good practice, moving up just one or two limits to 3/6 or 4/8 makes it a lot easier to stay ahead of the mountainous rake, particularly (so I hear) in the midwestern casinos.

For more totally helpful hints about 2/4 check out this informative article by a poker genius on ESPN.com

NITPATROL: NITPATROL

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

Here is one theory:

In 2/4, you probably love calling with A-4 offsuit UTG. 'cause its only $2.

In 10/20, you throw it away like you should.

2/4 seems like pennies to you after you play in $100+ pots at the 10/20 table, therefor your 2/4 starting hands probably deteriorate. Play the games correctly and you should win both.

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

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The mindset is different from what you would need at 10/20. If your bankroll is more suited to 2/4, invest a bit of it in SSHE and see if this makes a difference.

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SSH will help you immeasurably when it comes to 10/20 as well. It's not a strategy book about no-fold'em Hold'em games. It's a strategy book about Hold'em that focuses on the play more common at small stakes. The strategies in SSH translate across every level I have played, from 2-4 to 15-30, and I believe the fundamental ideas in the book are essential for any level of the game.

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

You are probably paying a much higher percentage of your pots in rake in a live 2/4 game than in a live 10/20 (I include tips and BBJP drop in "rake"). This can make the game tough to beat even if it is extremely fishy.

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

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Here is one theory:

In 2/4, you probably love calling with A-4 offsuit UTG. 'cause its only $2.

In 10/20, you throw it away like you should.

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The other theory is that he's played about 20-30 hours of 10/20 and perhaps another 20-30 hours of 2/4 and doesn't realize that his sample-size is virtually meaningless.


At 30-35 hands an hour this is still in the 1k total hands range at each level which is EXTREMELY small.


Most people (especially many live players) don't realize how long the 'long-run' really is and think that after playing 5 hours they can get an idea for what their win-rate is.



Many of those who complain that they just "can't win at such-and-such level" probably are frustrated after 10 hours of losing.
Many of those who think they are "easily beating the games at such-and-such level" came to this assumption after 20 hours of decent cards.

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

Don't play 2/4 live. Between the tipping and the rake, it is not possible to make money in the long run. 2/4 is a total waste of time unless you are poor or just goofing around. The difference in skill between the avarage 2/4 player and 6/12 players is not nearly as great as some would have you believe. Read some 2+2 books and play 3/6 until you get the hang of it rhen move up as soon as you can.

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

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Don't play 2/4 live. Between the tipping and the rake, it is not possible to make money in the long run. 2/4 is a total waste of time unless you are poor or just goofing around. The difference in skill between the avarage 2/4 player and 6/12 players is not nearly as great as some would have you believe. Read some 2+2 books and play 3/6 until you get the hang of it rhen move up as soon as you can.

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I don't think this is true. Maybe to someone who has never played 2/4 live it may sound true, but the players are so awful that the rake isn't as bad as you may think. For example, with 3-4 staying into the river with nothing, the rake at most is ONE BIG BET, but awful players love to play loose-passive and that one big bet is just one of those guys calling with crap. I really don't think that 2/4 is "unbeatable".

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

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Definitely true, but, as other posters have mentioned, watch the rake! While 2/4 is good practice, moving up just one or two limits to 3/6 or 4/8 makes it a lot easier to stay ahead of the mountainous rake, particularly (so I hear) in the midwestern casinos.

For more totally helpful hints about 2/4 check out this informative article by a poker genius on ESPN.com

NITPATROL: NITPATROL

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OMGWTFarethesepeopledoingatthetable???

Remind me to stay far, far away from that jackass.

(I did enjoy the story about getting kicked though)

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

the 4/8 is pretty close to the 2/4 game where i play so thats why i wanna try to find a way to win.....but yeah rake and tipping is horrible with 2/4 I should note i can crush low limit online but live is just so different

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

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actually i would ignore this advice - casino 2/4 is like bingo with cards - if you think playing games that preflop cap with 7 players is gonna help you in the long run then have at it, otherwise go higher (presuming you are a winning online player) i prefer 6/12 or higher where calling a reraise may cost a man an hours wage]

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This is incredibly stupid. If you can't beat 2/4, you sure as hell can't beat 10/20 over the long run. Short bursts of winning, yes, beat 10/20, no. We've been through this a million times before. Capping with J4o is bad play. If you can't beat people playing badly, you are not going to be able to beat people playing better. Fundamental theorum of poker.

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

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I cant seem to be able to beat 2/4 games on a constant basis although i seem to do good at 10/20 games......do you think you need to be able to crush a 2/4 game regulary before moving up in limits or not?

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There is of course many questions that need to be answered about your game before your question can be answered correctly. How many hours have you played 2-4 for? Whats the rake in your 2-4 games? How many hours have you played 10-20? Whats your bankroll? How far does your knowledge of limit Texas holdem extend?(what books have you read) Are you applying higher stakes stradegy to 2-4 limit stakes.

There are a combination of things that contribute to the limit at which you should be playing. Everything from the quality of players in the game, to your skill level, to your bankroll.

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

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play the highest game you can. why play 2/4 if you have the money for 10/20?

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because you maybe like many limit players one that thinks he can beat the 10-20 game when really your should be playing a lower limit, and are only beating it 49 to 40 % of the time.

Takeing shots btw does not consitute beating

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

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Ignore every post you read here except for mine

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Best preface to a post ever.

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

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Casino 2/4 is like bingo with cards

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If there's any piece of advice you should ignore, please... ignore this.

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

Use the search function. Write "variance"

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

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I cant seem to be able to beat 2/4 games on a constant basis although i seem to do good at 10/20 games......do you think you need to be able to crush a 2/4 game regulary before moving up in limits or not?

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Ignore every post you read here except for mine, as you are likely going to get many sarcastic repsonses telling you to move to 50/100. Yes, you need to be able to beat 2/4 first. You also need to understand short-term variance, which you likely do not. Good luck.

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actually i would ignore this advice - casino 2/4 is like bingo with cards - if you think playing games that preflop cap with 7 players is gonna help you in the long run then have at it, otherwise go higher (presuming you are a winning online player) i prefer 6/12 or higher where calling a reraise may cost a man an hours wage



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Aside from the obvious problems here, do you think that calling a 3-bet in a 20/40 game costs the typical player anything meaningful?

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

Move up the limits where the players will actually respect your bets. The only way to win is to play aginst good players.

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

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Move up the limits where the players will actually respect your bets. The only way to win is to play aginst good players.

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***Waiting for several people with no sense of humor to jump up his ass***

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

How/why is this getting bumped? Every day it seems I check this forum and have a fit of laughter at the phrases "crushing" and "live 2/4" being used in the same post title....

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

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but yeah rake and tipping is horrible with 2/4 I should note i can crush low limit online but live is just so different


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I dont know about holdem much, but it seems the 2/4 in a casino with adequate tiping which you should do and rake is almost unbeatable unless you get an insane rush of cards and even then. I would say just play low stakes online, play 4/8 or higher live, but anything lower should be played online where the rake is much much smaller and you can actually consistently win. I know ill get bashed for saying its unbeatable, but why put extra strain on yourself by having to deal with the high rake and tipping? Poker is hard enough in my opinion.

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

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I dont know about holdem much, but it seems the 2/4 in a casino with adequate tiping which you should do and rake is almost unbeatable unless you get an insane rush of cards and even then.

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I wrote up my argument about low-limit rake (and an attempt to summarize the opposing argument, although I find it erroneous) here: Low-limit rake. No one's yet replied with a convincing rebuttal of my argument. When you win a pot, the higher % rake and toke shouldn't kill you because that nitwit to your left who cold called your raise with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is paying your entire rake for you!

Also I'm of the opinion that $0.50 is an appropriate toke for most $2/4 pots, especially at Foxwoods where shorting a half-dollar only changes your dealer's end-of-day income by $0.00001 anyway.

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

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How/why is this getting bumped? Every day it seems I check this forum and have a fit of laughter at the phrases "crushing" and "live 2/4" being used in the same post title....

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Because it should be a tautology for a seasoned 2+2er, right?

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

I dont know maybe its my local casino in SoCal, but morongo and san manuel are pretty bad when it comes to take, they take 3 bucks out of every hand plus 1 dollar for the jackpot plus you have to tip 1-2 dollars. I dont know how you guys get raked so I dont know if we are talking about the same thing.

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

At WinStar, they take 5 bucks out of every hand plus 1 dollar for the jackpot drop plus you have to tip 1-2 dollars.

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

This is probably good advice. But there might be reasons you can't beat the 2/4 other than less then optimal play.

What is the rake structure like? If they're taking a drop each and every hand. This can make it next to impossible to beat the game in my opinion. Be selective with the posters you listen to in this respect. There are so many people playing poker, there are certainly some who buck the odds. Don't expect to be one of the lucky ones.

Also, do you know why you're losing? Saying the players are too loose and always suckout is not thorough enough reasoning. Do you move to another table when you believe you don't have an advantage at your current table? Do you think about the hands you win and lose and think about whether you could have played them differently to win more or lose less? Do you use position to your advantage? Do you make other players at the table your unwitting accomplice by leveraging their aggression? Are you leaving money on the table with the hands you win?

These are all questions I ask myself all the time.

-DP (another losing low limit player)

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

I'll leave the "have to tip" part alone, but Morongo rebates the rake for very small pots or no flop, and only takes $2 rake (plus jackpot dollar) at 2/4 unless the pot is bigger than $40 unraked. Once it hits $40, the point about the idiot on your left chasing backdoor flushes with J5 is right on-- paying one BB when there's 5 idiots is hardly a price to pay.
Morongo 2/4 is reliably REALLY bad, like 5-10 cent bad. 3/6 when the sun is up can be fairly tight, and also usually has 1 or 2 fair online players, while 2/4 almost never has a skilled player anywhere. I find 2/4 more profitable there, in the range of $5/hr, while I merely break even at 3/6 and 4/8. (small sample-- maybe 175 hrs total, 100 at 2/4). Roughly, you can expect 6 to the flop (out of 9) at any 2/4 table any time, while 3/6 is only like that fri-sat-sun nights.
San Manuel used to have similar policies, but I HATED the 2/2 blinds at 2/4 so much (the explanation was "we have to have chips to take the rake from at the start of the hand-- how else could we do it?") that I won't play there. On the bright side, 3/6 there is pretty loose, looser than Morongo daytime.
-Curtis

Re: Crushing live 2/4 tables
 

I know im surprised my post is always on page one too.....we can let it die, Ive logged a couple hundred hours in the casino and more online so I didnt need that much advice but good anyways. Tonight i played 4/8 live and got 200 profit from a 5 hour session for an update, my game was really on