bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls, SB calls.

River: (7 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 7 BB

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

raise the flop, you probably would have seen the turn for free (if not call), and definitely bet the river.

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

You have the nut straight. Bet it.

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

1. Raise this pre flop. QJs is a good hand, and if somebody wants to come along with A-rag, they should have to pay for it.

2. Raise on the flop. You have OESD to the nuts with two overcards. Again, if there's a lonely A out there, you can't let him draw cheaply.

3. The turn call is fine, and the river check is fine too.

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

I don't mean to be rude, but what the hell are you doing? Why would you call the turn bet if you aren't going to be the river when you hit your out? Don't you think if someone had a flush they would have bet it? Sooooo weak

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
2. Raise on the flop. You have OESD to the nuts with two overcards. Again, if there's a lonely A out there, you can't let him draw cheaply.

3. The turn call is fine, and the river check is fine too.


[/ QUOTE ]

2. The "lone-A" isn't drawing, his Ace high has your QJ crushed right now

3. Are you serious? How do you make money when you don't bet when you make your draw? Do you not realize he made a straight on the river? How could you check here?

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

exactly my point....I hit one of my outs that made a flush possible....do I bet and fear a check raise and pay off the flush or do I just check...

In hindsight, I totally agree with the pre-flop raise. Still debating the flop raise in my mind

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

Flop raise would be borderline, but I could get on board with it if it'll give you a free card. Turn is standard, and for the love of god, BET THE RIVER. Pay off a checkraise.

Rob

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

I am a bit new to posting here so please feel free to correct my analasys on this hand.

The way I figure it you have 6 sure outs to make your straight; any 8 or K that is not a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. You also also have some partial outs to top pair; any J or Q that is not a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], I would count these as 2 outs in total. The odds to call on the flop or the turn would then have to be approximately 1-4.5. On the flop you got 1-6 and on the turn 1-5 so calling seems fine to me.

However, having said all this about your outs not containging any [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], I would still bet the river hoping that noone had made the flush.

Feel free to comment on this as I am also trying to learn how to beat this frustrating game! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

There isn't much to debate about the flop raise. It is a clear value raise. There is also a good chance it will buy you a free card on the turn.

As for the river if you check through a strong hand every time a 3rd flush card falls you are going to be leaving a lot of bets on the table.

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
exactly my point....I hit one of my outs that made a flush possible....do I bet and fear a check raise and pay off the flush or do I just check...

[/ QUOTE ]


What flush? In a 3 handed pot at the river, they both check to you.

Or are you the guy who only bets the river with the nuts?

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

Would you bet the river if you were holding 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]?

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

It is not bad to discount your outs, but you shouldn't be eliminating the [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] outs all together from the equation. I think even couting them as only 1/2 outs is a bit too conservative, but I wouldn't argue with you about it too much.

So if you were going to count them as 1/2 outs you have 10 outs in this hand.

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Would you bet the river if you were holding 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]?

[/ QUOTE ]


NO WAY. I don't have the nuts [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

BTW, excellent point.

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would you bet the river if you were holding 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]?

[/ QUOTE ]


NO WAY. I don't have the nuts [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

BTW, excellent point.

[/ QUOTE ]

You say you don't mean to be rude, but you are laying it on pretty thick don't ya think?

Certainly betting the river is the correct thing to do here, but it wouldn't shock me at all if the SB turns over the flush here. It's likely BB is going to fire again on the river so the SB trying to get a check raise in wouldn;t be the worst play in the world.

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

For those of us going through major downswings right now, not betting the river is an insult to us all.

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

so I think what people are saying if I bet I can:
1. win 7BB by both folding a good thing
2. Win 1 or 2 more BB by being called with the best hand
3. split the pot with another straight (betting doesn't matter here)
4. pay 2BB's to the flush

and since 3 of the 4 are in my favor and the fourth option is not very likely the best thing to do is bet.

anybody disagree?

BTW I would bet 2d 3d...can you explain that one to this dullard

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Certainly betting the river is the correct thing to do here, but it wouldn't shock me at all if the SB turns over the flush here. It's likely BB is going to fire again on the river so the SB trying to get a check raise in wouldn;t be the worst play in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

If SB has a flush and was dumb enough to play the flop that way, would he suddenly become smart enough to check raise the river?

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

[ QUOTE ]

BTW I would bet 2d 3d...can you explain that one to this dullard

[/ QUOTE ]

On this particular board, if you hold QJ(no flush), or 2d3d, you have exactly the same hand. The hands that beat your straight will beat your baby flush. The hands that c/r your straight will c/r your baby flush.

My main thinking is, if you aren't going to bet when you make a straight, when it puts 3 to a flush on the board, then fold the flop and save your self the money

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
so I think what people are saying if I bet I can:
1. win 7BB by both folding a good thing
2. Win 1 or 2 more BB by being called with the best hand
3. split the pot with another straight (betting doesn't matter here)
4. pay 2BB's to the flush

and since 3 of the 4 are in my favor and the fourth option is not very likely the best thing to do is bet.

anybody disagree?

BTW I would bet 2d 3d...can you explain that one to this dullard

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the point was if you would bet 2d3d (as you should) even though it's not the nuts, why wouldn't you bet this straight although it's not the nuts as well.

I see...lemme know when or if you want the results
 

touche...excellent point with the 2d3d...let me know if anybody wants the results

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
BTW I would bet 2d 3d...can you explain that one to this dullard

[/ QUOTE ]

Your nut straight loses only to a flush. The flush you'd make with 2d 3d is essentially no better than the nut straight, you'd still lose to any other flush. 2d 3d is slightly better only because it makes another flush a bit less likely, but that slight amount isn't enough to be the difference between checking and betting.

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

Hey, how's it goin...I'd raise PF, and bet the flop when it got checked to me. you were definitely right in calling the flop with your OESD and overcards.

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
4. pay 2BB's to the flush

...is not very likely, the best thing to do is bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

over the course of the entire time @ the table, paying 2 BB's off here wouldn't necessarily be that bad.

if villain (as well as other ppl at the table) see you fold to a check-raise on the river here, they'll be sure to try it on you and bluff you out down the road.

At these limits (where i'm cutting my teeth too), in addition to bluffing, it's not uncommon for players to miss seeing the flush &amp; straight draws completely &amp; think that hands like 2-pair &amp; TPTK are very good here. They may think that's even more true when it's only 3-handed.

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

[ QUOTE ]

3. split the pot with another straight (betting doesn't matter here)
4. pay 2BB's to the flush


[/ QUOTE ]

#3 Not always: If you bet, that other straight may fear that YOU have the flush and fold. Think of the "tilting opponent" possibilities if there's a showdown.

#4 Yup. Just because they check-raise I wouldn't give them 100% credit for having the flush...they may have that chopping straight from #3. I'd make them prove it.

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Certainly betting the river is the correct thing to do here, but it wouldn't shock me at all if the SB turns over the flush here. It's likely BB is going to fire again on the river so the SB trying to get a check raise in wouldn;t be the worst play in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

If SB has a flush and was dumb enough to play the flop that way, would he suddenly become smart enough to check raise the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

That would surprise you? There are legions of Party .5/1 players that like to call along until they hit a real hand and then try and be tricky with them.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying he most likely has the flush and I am not saying I think checking the river through was correct. I am just saying if SB check-raises and shows the flush it wouldn't shock me given the way the hand played out.

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2. Raise on the flop. You have OESD to the nuts with two overcards. Again, if there's a lonely A out there, you can't let him draw cheaply.

3. The turn call is fine, and the river check is fine too.


[/ QUOTE ]

2. The "lone-A" isn't drawing, his Ace high has your QJ crushed right now

3. Are you serious? How do you make money when you don't bet when you make your draw? Do you not realize he made a straight on the river? How could you check here?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, excuse my choice of words. What I'm saying is, you want to move a lonely A of his hand, a call isn't going to do that, a raise might.

Clearly BB wasn't impressed by his hand pre flop, or he would have bet it. My thinking is that a baby flush is highly likely, followed by a two pair/set. He could even have Axs. It's the case of only getting called by hands who have you beat, and the risk of getting C/R. I don't think you'll get more than one caller either ...

All in all, if betting for value here is +EV, it's only slightly so IMO. So checking here is fine, it's not a big mistake.

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

raise preflop
raise the flop
check-call the turn
bet the river, calling a check-raise

what's the debate about here?

btw entity, you said the flop raise was borderline.. throw in 2 overcards and its not even close.. do you see why? oh wait, I just said why [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Clearly BB wasn't impressed by his hand pre flop, or he would have bet it. My thinking is that a baby flush is highly likely, followed by a two pair/set. He could even have Axs. It's the case of only getting called by hands who have you beat, and the risk of getting C/R. I don't think you'll get more than one caller either ...

[/ QUOTE ]

you are thinking WAY too scared. when he sees the flop, we can narrow BB's holding to... any 2. many typical players will not raise out of the blinds.. except with big pairs or AK. putting BB on two pair, a set, or a baby flush from a flop/turn bet and river check is not a healthy attitude. if anything, it looks like Tx or 9x which is scared of the face card on the river. he saw the flop with any 2, he will have a worse hand far more often than not.

[ QUOTE ]
All in all, if betting for value here is +EV, it's only slightly so IMO. So checking here is fine, it's not a big mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

not betting this river is a huge mistake.. not for this single occurence in particular, but because it comes up quite frequently. if you cannot find a river value bet here, you are passing up on many profitable river bets.

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
raise preflop
raise the flop
check-call the turn
bet the river, calling a check-raise

what's the debate about here?

btw entity, you said the flop raise was borderline.. throw in 2 overcards and its not even close.. do you see why? oh wait, I just said why [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, flop raise isn't really borderline. My bad. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Rob

Re: bet for value here? also did I have pot odds to call?
 

Well, I'm glad we cleared that up. Two (at least) for betting on the river, one (me) mildly against. From now on I'll start betting the river more than I do today.

Thank you all.