Turned a Big Draw, Bet or Check Behind?
 

From tonite's 45k, Villain is GambleAB. I get confused as to whether I should be betting here...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Button (t6700)
SB (t17160)
BB (t10825)
UTG (t11625)
UTG+1 (t6580)
MP1 (t4425)
Hero (t17795)
MP3 (t16275)
CO (t5790)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t600</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls t500, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (t1400) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t800</font>, SB calls t800.

Turn: (t3000) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero ???

Re: Turned a Big Draw, Bet or Check Behind?
 

i fire again, then crap my pants if he check raises me [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

I think enough people fold to the second bet here for it to be good though.

Re: Turned a Big Draw, Bet or Check Behind?
 

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i fire again, then 3 bet him if he check raises me

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FYP

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Turned a Big Draw, Bet or Check Behind?
 

I don't see any sort of a made hand he could be playing like this... so by checking behind you're just giving him a free card to complete his draw, while I don't think you'll need to make yours to win this one. I bet about 2K there, and bet the river if the straight/flush draw misses.

I would not be worried about getting check-raised on that turn. The FE of your 3-bet all-in with those stack sizes combined with the odds of hitting make it an automatic play.
But I could be wrong.


btw, this assuming a standard opponent... is there anything special about the one you mentioned?

Kirk

Re: Turned a Big Draw, Bet or Check Behind?
 

I'd almost never 3-bet all in here, could i be enlightend? We are assuming good FE against a thinking opponent like Gamble right?

Re: Turned a Big Draw, Bet or Check Behind?
 

take the free card and call a non-spade river (or bet/raise if you get there)

Re: Turned a Big Draw, Bet or Check Behind?
 

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take the free card and call a non-spade river (or bet/raise if you get there)

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That is scary....

Re: Turned a Big Draw, Bet or Check Behind?
 

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I don't see any sort of a made hand he could be playing like this... so by checking behind you're just giving him a free card to complete his draw, while I don't think you'll need to make yours to win this one. I bet about 2K there, and bet the river if the straight/flush draw misses.

I would not be worried about getting check-raised on that turn. The FE of your 3-bet all-in with those stack sizes combined with the odds of hitting make it an automatic play.


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I agree, at this point with this hand that's my standard line. I'm willing to push to a check-raise as a semi-bluff, and if I'm behind I'll just hit a diamond on the river [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Turned a Big Draw, Bet or Check Behind?
 

I agree that I don't see any made hands taking this line, unless Hero has established a LAG image that is likely to bet on every street and villain is simply using hero's aggression against him. Behind to a lot of hands, I take the free card.

Re: Turned a Big Draw, Bet or Check Behind?
 

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That is scary....

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Is it scary that my first thoughts about this hand are in line with SossMan's? I really, really hate getting checkraised here, and I think an aggressive player like GambleAB is fairly likely to do so.

Also, I think he's going to bet most rivers, even a diamond, after he senses the turn weakness. So you can extract a decent number of chips when you do hit and maybe pick off a bluff even if you don't. Maybe I'm just being weak-tight in the face of a "name player."

Re: Turned a Big Draw, Bet or Check Behind?
 

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I'd almost never 3-bet all in here, could i be enlightend? We are assuming good FE against a thinking opponent like Gamble right?

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After putting the range through pokerstove, I'm pretty sure I'm wrong here.

He needs to be bluffing 30% of the time if we give him all sets and straight draws/made straights in his range.

Oops.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Turned a Big Draw, Bet or Check Behind?
 

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I'd almost never 3-bet all in here, could i be enlightend? We are assuming good FE against a thinking opponent like Gamble right?

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After putting the range through pokerstove, I'm pretty sure I'm wrong here.

He needs to be bluffing 30% of the time if we give him all sets and straight draws/made straights in his range.

Oops.

Regards,
Woodguy

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Wasn't it earlier today that you described yourself as weak-tight? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Turned a Big Draw, Bet or Check Behind?
 

I would fire again on the turn, however, if I miss on the river and assuming he misses his spade if that is what he had, shouldnt we check behind after the river card, assuming he will only call with the better hand? Someone mentioned to bet/raise any non-spade but I feel after missing our draw we should check behind if checked too. Is this too weak? Woodguy? Or should we be firing the 3rd barrel on the river if we miss everything?

Re: Turned a Big Draw, Bet or Check Behind?
 

This looks to me like a spade flush draw, a pocket pair, or something like A8/A7. I don't know that you are pushing him off any hands that you want him to fold, and you are pushing him off hands you want him to call with. I'd check behind and call a small river bet if you don't hit or hit your Ace. If you hit the Jack or flush, I'd bet/raise.

Re: Turned a Big Draw, Bet or Check Behind?
 

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Someone mentioned to bet/raise any non-spade but I feel after missing our draw we should check behind if checked too. Is this too weak? Woodguy? Or should we be firing the 3rd barrel on the river if we miss everything?

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Not sure.

In a vacuum I'd say if he calls the turn he's either made or has more than a spade draw going for him. (although a made hand probably c/r here often)

I have a habit of missing value bets on the river or making bad bluffs on the river, so I don't feel qualified to give an answer here.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Turned a Big Draw, Bet or Check Behind?
 

I pot the river if checked to and a blank peels off, for the simple reason that I don't see any hand he can be playing that way that can call that bet.


Edit: Quick elaboration: a lot of times in those exact situations, in position, I'll look at a blank river and basically say to myself talking to my oppoennt - "hey, you realize that if you check here you've just given me the pot, right?" They check, I push/bet depending on stack sizes, they fold. Once in a blue moon I'm called, but I take those the same way I'd take him hitting a 2-outer on the river.

Kirk

Re: Partial Results and Another Decision
 

So I took the SossMan line here, checking behind and taking the free card, which was the very interesting 8d, making my flush but pairing the board in the process (Final Board is 88257).

GambleAB now leads into me for 1k into the 3k pot. He has 8k left and I have him well covered. What's my play?

Re: Partial Results and Another Decision
 

i'd call. you only have to be right 1/5. he can have a lot of spade draws here, and probably check/calls a hand like 97.

Re: Partial Results and Another Decision
 

Well your check behind showed weakness and I feel he would have led the turn with a set. IMP the board was way too draw heavy to SP any set on the flop! You made the hand you were drawing too, lets get paid off.

Re: Partial Results and Another Decision
 

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Well your check behind showed weakness and I feel he would have led the turn with a set. IMP the board was way too draw heavy to SP any set on the flop! You made the hand you were drawing too, lets get paid off.

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How much are we raising?

Re: Partial Results and Another Decision
 

I would raise 3 to 3.5 times his bet. So 3k to 3.5k.

Re: Partial Results and Another Decision
 

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i'd call. you only have to be right 1/5. he can have a lot of spade draws here, and probably check/calls a hand like 97.

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i'm pretty sure the options are:

Call
Raise

I don't think folding is in any way an option.

Re: Partial Results and Another Decision
 

i raise him to 3k and call a push. He could have lots of hands that dont beat you, but will call/push on you raise. I think that 3k should be arouund right, it's a mix of looking weak/getting decent value.